Should europeans wait for AP3?

[Phrixotrichus]

You need to read your own posts.

...and I quote...

"considering all Tesla is able to do right now is hands on lane assist in the simplest of all road situations and we still haven't even reached what was promised for AP1 I seriously neither understand the general optimism nor the trust some people still place in Tesla's software promises."

By stating that the current system is only a hands on lane assist in the simplest of all road situations you state that you believe the system is far less capable than my experience supports. That is what I was replying to. Not my experience in any way shape or form.

Dan

It doesn`t get simpler than highway and it doesn`t do anything on its own besides following lanes without confirmation by the driver who always has to be ready to take over in a split second, and the AP1 promises are indeed unfullfilled.

I honestly see no error here nor a deviation from the offical categorization.
It integrated the gps now, but I seriously don´t see that changing the general situation.

Once Tesla trusts their own system enough to up the automation level we can talk again...

 

[Dan Detweiler]

It doesn`t get simpler than highway and it doesn`t do anything on its own besides following lanes without confirmation by the driver who always has to be ready to take over in a split second, and the AP1 promises are indeed unfullfilled.

I honestly see no error here nor a deviation from the offical categorization.
It integrated the gps now, but I seriously don´t see that changing the general situation.

Once Tesla trusts their own system enough to up the automation level we can talk again...

Then you obviously haven't used the system. It monitors the environment 360 degrees around itself. It makes adjustments to deviations in that environment both in speed and in lane choice. It foresees the need to move to a different lane to accommodate highway egress. It reacts to changes in its environment by taking evasive action if needed. The fact that it asks for driver confirmation is a minor step to being fully self sufficient on the highway, but again, nobody is saying this is full self driving. The system has made tremendous progress in a very short period of time. Stop trying to make it something it isn't and acknowledge it for what it is.

Dan

 

[Phrixotrichus]

Stop trying to make it something it isn't and acknowledge it for what it is.

It´s a level 2, hands on, highway only lane assitant with nav-integration.
And all I ever said is that FSD aka level 4/5 based on the current product offering seems a long way off, nothing more, nothing less.

No one but you tried to make AP more than it is, not even Tesla itself.

Also you should probably look at different manufacturers if you think what you descibed besides that is Tesla specific.....

 

[Dan Detweiler]

It´s a level 2, hands on, highway only lane assitant with nav-integration.
And all I ever said is that FSD aka level 4/5 based on the current product offering seems a long way off, nothing more, nothing less.

No one but you tried to make AP more than it is, not even Tesla itself.

Also you should probably look at different manufacturers if you think what you descibed besides that is Tesla specific.....

Nope, sorry, that is NOT what you said. I never stated that Autopilot was more than it is, I related my specific experience with the system. Something you can not duplicate at this point. Doesn't make you wrong and me right, but the relevance is quite different. You tried to turn my first hand experience into me stating it was more than it is. The problem is you don't understand what the system does so you see it only for what you have seen in the past. Does it require driver approval for some actions? Of course. Does it require you to tell the system you are still alive? Of course. Is it level 2 or maybe 3 autonomy? Of course, nobody said it wasn't. However, what you view this system to be and how you describe it is disingenuous and misinformed. Label it however you need to, the system is far superior to any other system on the market. It can do things no other system can do and most importantly, it shows a path to cost effective improvement that no other system can hope for. In my humble opinion of course.

Dan

 

[Phrixotrichus]

Nope, sorry, that is NOT what you said. I never stated that Autopilot was more than it is, I related my specific experience with the system. Something you can not duplicate at this point.

GPS integration doesn`t change a thing as long as the system still requires me to have my hands on the wheel and confirm everything. In the end it still only follows lanes.

The problem is you don't understand what the system does so you see it only for what you have seen in the past.

GPS integration doesn`t change a thing as long as the system still requires me to have my hands on the wheel and confirm everything. In the end it still only follows lanes.

Is it level 2 or maybe 3 autonomy?

Level 2 by definition, no discussion possible there.

However, what you view this system to be and how you describe it is disingenuous and misinformed

I just have a different opinion about how "awesome"...or not the offered product is.
It`s level 2, and level 2 will never be interesting in any way for me.
Once Tesla gets to level 3 and beyond and I can actually take my hands off the wheel I´ll be excited, too. In fact the AP promises are the only thing that got me interested in Tesla. The first manufacturer offering true level 4/5 will get my money. As it looks now that`ll take another 2 rotations though.

It can do things no other system can do a

Hm agreed, at least for now it`s definitely the best lane assistant there is.

most importantly, it shows a path to cost effective improvement that no other system can hope for. In my humble opinion of course.

MobilEye might have a say in this, but I´m definitely on board about hoping that an inexpensive sensor suite will turn out to be enough to go to level 3 and beyond some day.
If lidar and Co turn out to be a necessity after all it will take even longer for level 4/5 to hit mass market.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

GPS integration doesn`t change a thing as long as the system still requires me to have my hands on the wheel and confirm everything. In the end it still only follows lanes.


GPS integration doesn`t change a thing as long as the system still requires me to have my hands on the wheel and confirm everything. In the end it still only follows lanes.

Level 2 by definition, no discussion possible there.

I just have a different opinion about how "awesome"...or not the offered product is.
It`s level 2, and level 2 will never be interesting in any way for me.
Once Tesla gets to level 3 and beyond and I can actually take my hands off the wheel I´ll be excited, too.
As it`s now it`s uninteresting for me.

Hm agreed, at least for now it`s definitely the best lane assistant there is.

MobilEye might have a say in this, but I´m definitely on board about hoping that an inexpensive sensor suite will turn out to be enough to go to level 3 and beyond some day.
If lidar and Co turn out to be a necessity after all it will take even longer for level 4/5 to hit mass market.

So tell me, what is the big deal about having to maintain awareness, aka respond to nags or confirm lane changes? The car is still doing the work. OK, I will concede that it is level 2 if you say so. I really don't care what it is labelled. All that matters to me is its capabilities. There is no other system in existence that could have done what I did the other day. Not even close. So when it no longer requires you to acknowledge lane changes (coming in a month or two) what does that make it... level 2+? What about when it reads stop lights and road signs...is it level 3 then? When it takes right turns on its own...3+? What about when it does everything but wants you to verify that you're alive...4? Would you agree that when a steering wheel and pedals are available options on the car at purchase that it is level 5?

I'm not into labels, just capability, and the system as it stands now is an incredible convenience and safety feature...whatever you want to label it.

Dan

 

[Phrixotrichus]

So tell me, what is the big deal about having to maintain awareness, aka respond to nags or confirm lane changes? The car is still doing the work. OK, I will concede that it is level 2 if you say so. I really don't care what it is labelled. All that matters to me is its capabilities. There is no other system in existence that could have done what I did the other day. Not even close. So when it no longer requires you to acknowledge lane changes (coming in a month or two) what does that make it... level 2+? What about when it reads stop lights and road signs...is it level 3 then? When it takes right turns on its own...3+? What about when it does everything but wants you to verify that you're alive...4? Would you agree that when a steering wheel and pedals are available options on the car at purchase that it is level 5?

I'm not into labels, just capability, and the system as it stands now is an incredible convenience and safety feature...whatever you want to label it.

Dan

Please read up on the automation levels first, any discussion is pointless when the basics are missing and the terrible nonsense you are writing here almost hurts reading.
The automation levels aren`t just some arbitrary labels but are well defined and directly correlate with the actual capabilities of the system.
That you don`t understand what all that means at least explains some parts of this...discussion.


And if you don`t get why people would welcome to not have to drive anymore and do other things instead then ...
Do you get the principle of a chauffeur and why people might like that?

 

[Matias]

As to the original question - I would bet that AP3 will be available before the cars are delivered in Europe

Musk in the latest cc: ”We expect to start producing a significant volume for Europe in January, and obviously take some time to ship. So deliveries, probably if we finish the deliveries in Europe kind of in the late February, March timeframe.”

AP3 will not be rolling out in January (from the same CC: ”by the end of Q1”). So first cars to Europe will be built about two months before AP3 launch.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

Please read up on the automation levels first, any discussion is pointless when the basics are missing and the terrible nonsense you are writing here almost hurts reading.
The automation levels aren`t just some arbitrary labels but are well defined and directly correlate with the actual capabilities of the system.
That you don`t understand what all that means at least explains some parts of this...discussion.


And if you don`t get why people would welcome to not have to drive anymore and do other things instead then ...
Do you get the principle of a chauffeur and why people might like that?

Wow, I am so sorry if my actual first hand experience is painful for you. I never said the levels are pointless, I said what matters to me is capability of which no other system can compare at thus point. You make assumptions about my understanding that are without merit but I'll chalk that up to written limitations. I have actually spent my money to get the feature you claim I don't understand the attraction for. Coming from a family prone to Alzheimer's the thought of losing my independence is the single most disconcerting thing in life, thus my investment in the only technology that I believe has a chance of success. Sooo...tell you what, why don't you save the self righteous pontificating on what I do or do not understand. Just pony up YOUR dollars and put your money where your mouth is...be it Waymo, Cadillac, Nissan, or heaven forbid Tesla.

Dan

 

[Runt8]

Musk in the latest cc: ”We expect to start producing a significant volume for Europe in January, and obviously take some time to ship. So deliveries, probably if we finish the deliveries in Europe kind of in the late February, March timeframe.”

AP3 will not be rolling out in January (from the same CC: ”by the end of Q1”). So first cars to Europe will be built about two months before AP3 launch.

And when I first placed my reservation he said they would be building 5000 a week by the end of 2017. Welcome to Elon time. I'm betting that the first cars delivered in Europe will have AP3. I could be wrong.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

Wow, I am so sorry if my actual first hand experience is painful for you

I was relating to your ridiculous bs about the automation tiers.
Your positive first hand experience doesn`t matter any more than the negatives on the other side in the grand scheme of things, so basically zero.
Until Tesla ups the level for everyone with a higher capability/automation tier.
I dunno how often I have to repeat myself. Whenever i do you interpret new things.....I keep talking about the autmation tiers while you keep commenting and it turns out you don`t even understand what I´m talking about. How pointless was all this? Why even comment in the first place?!

I have actually spent my money to get the feature you claim I don't understand the attraction for.

You read stuff that isn`t even there...

Coming from a family prone to Alzheimer's the thought of losing my independence is the single most disconcerting thing in life, thus my investment in the only technology that I believe has a chance of success.

The first part of the sentence has absolutely no correlation to the 2nd half.....What`s wrong with you? Are you trying to troll or do you seriously not realize that nothing you say has any coherence.....


My whole statement, all I ever intended to say before your comical interpretation story started:
Level 2 is far off level 4, and below level 4 it`s not FSD.
FSD will therefore probably not hit anytime soon, or at least nothing that deserves the description.
And your personal experience doesn`t matter one bit as long as Tesla doesn´t up the official capabilitiy tier, if you like it or not.

 

[Knightshade]

Sorry, but you "know" nothing, you just had a good personal experience so far. Making assumptions about the state of the system from anecdotal evidence is a big mistake, one that certain drivers in the past already made.....

Certain drivers like... you?

Nope, the last time I tested Tesla AP was in May back in SF where I tried out my friend`s M3. And at least back then it was still a lvl 2 system you couldn`t trust to even always hold its lane.

So HIS personal experience with his own car on the current AP is "nothing"

But YOUR personal experience, on a borrowed car, with a much older rev of the software, is relevant and true... because... REASONS!


Not to mention your comment of "still a lvl 2 system" shows you don't understand what EAP is even supposed to be.

It's a level 2 system by design

Self parking, hands off highway driving, traffic light and general sign recognition, summon from everywhere on your property, "eventually" summon from all over the country aka driverless full level 5 fsd.

FYI- None of those things, other than self-parking (which it does), are part of EAP- nor has Tesla ever said they would be part of EAP.

You STILL don`t get the difference between systemic facts and anecdotal evidence/opinions.
I don´t have an "opinion" on the current state, I´m simply stating the facts, and those are from Tesla itself, who are the only ones with actual data to base their satetements on:

- Level 2
- Hands on
- Highway only

it`s not really difficult to understand...or so I thought.

the only "opinion" is have concerning AP is merely a guess as to how long it might take to go from that official state of the system to something that might deserve the name FSD.

Ah- I see.

You don't understand what EAP is vs FSD.

EAP isn't a system that is ever "going from" L2 hands on to L5.

it's not, and never has been, intended to do that.

FSD is an entirely different product you have to pay an additional fee for.

Being SHOCKED that EAP is "still" level 2 demonstrates you don't know what EAP is. It's L2 by intent and design.

Once they remove the requirement to confirm lane changes (which is supposedly coming very shortly, and actually was in a beta version of the current SW) EAP will, in fact, be entirely feature-complete based on the originally promised features.


FSD is an entirely different system- which will require the HW3 computer (at least) and will be getting its very first actual features allegedly about the same time (which is roughly 6 months from now).

For those, unlike yourself, who have actual experience with V9 and drive on nav, it's not at all unreasonable to expect one of FSDs first offerings will be an L3 (or possibly L4) highway driving mode given how much more capable the computer will be.

 

[Phrixotrichus]

Certain drivers like... you?

More like people crashing into fire trucks, lane dividers or below truck trailers....

So HIS personal experience with his own car on the current AP is "nothing"

But YOUR personal experience, on a borrowed car, with a much older rev of the software, is relevant and true... because... REASONS!

I just answered the question about my personal experience because I was asked, the rest is basically Tesla`s official capability catalogue. I also said multiple times that anecdotal evidence from either side is worthless! Please read before you comment!

Not to mention your comment of "still a lvl 2 system" shows you don't understand what EAP is even supposed to be.

It's a level 2 system by design

You STILL go on about EAP? No one ist talking about EAP in particular!
Please read before you comment!

A
You don't understand what EAP is vs FSD.

EAP isn't a system that is ever "going from" L2 hands on to L5.

it's not, and never has been, intended to do that.

FSD is an entirely different product you have to pay an additional fee for.

No one ever claimed that or assumed that or wanted that! Please read before you comment!

Being SHOCKED that EAP is "still" level 2 demonstrates you don't know what EAP is. It's L2 by intent and design.

No one ever was, neither me, my cat or anyone in this thread.
This was on the state of AP in general and what we currently have or see means going forward in the direction of FSD.
Please read before you comment!

For those, unlike yourself, who have actual experience with V9 and drive on nav, it's not at all unreasonable to expect one of FSDs first offerings will be an L3 (or possibly L4) highway driving mode given how much more capable the computer will be.

Possibly. But on the other hand none here except for Tesla has real stats. If they`re ready to release a lvl 3+ version they will surely do that the moment they`re done. The first one to make the jump to real FSD will bathe in customer-money.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

I was relating to your ridiculous bs about the automation tiers.
Your positive first hand experience doesn`t matter any more than the negatives on the other side in the grand scheme of things, so basically zero.
Until Tesla ups the level for everyone with a higher capability/automation tier.
I dunno how often I have to repeat myself. Whenever i do you interpret new things.....I keep talking about the autmation tiers while you keep commenting and it turns out you don`t even understand what I´m talking about. How pointless was all this? Why even comment in the first place?!


You read stuff that isn`t even there...

The first part of the sentence has absolutely no correlation to the 2nd half.....What`s wrong with you? Are you trying to troll or do you seriously not realize that nothing you say has any coherence.....


My whole statement, all I ever intended to say before your comical interpretation story started:
Level 2 is far off level 4, and below level 4 it`s not FSD.
FSD will therefore probably not hit anytime soon, or at least nothing that deserves the description.
And your personal experience doesn`t matter one bit as long as Tesla doesn´t up the official capabilitiy tier, if you like it or not.

Goodbye

You are no longer worth the headache you are giving me. Have a nice day.

Dan

 

[Knightshade]

More like people crashing into fire trucks, lane dividers or below truck trailers....

Virtually all of whom were using the system incorrectly.

Overall, EAP results in far fewer accidents than human driving without it does.

I just answered the question about my personal experience because I was asked

And he responded with his own, far more recent and relevant personal experience, and you jumped all over him for thinking "personal experience" meant anything.... despite your own being the start of that discussion.

You STILL go on about EAP? No one ist talking about EAP in particular!

Except for the numerous times you talk about EAP in particular

Please read before you comment!

I suggest you take your own advice

This was on the state of AP in general

See above.

Where you just told us you weren't talking about AP, then admit you were talking about AP.

Apparently even you don't believe what you post

and what we currently have or see means going forward in the direction of FSD.

It really doesn't.

EAP is not FSD.

Please read what the difference is before you comment

 

[J1mbo]

Once they remove the requirement to confirm lane changes (which is supposedly coming very shortly, and actually was in a beta version of the current SW) EAP will, in fact, be entirely feature-complete based on the originally promised features.

Smart Summon (on private land) will make EAP feature complete.

Removing the need to confirm lane changes will complete the DoN feature

 

[Phrixotrichus]

Goodbye

You are no longer worth the headache you are giving me. Have a nice day.

Dan

Since were obviously playing "poem interpretation"`here instead of having an actual discourse I´ll wholeheartedly agree.
A nice day to you, too.

blablabla

not worth commenting individually. Just bullshit.
Interpret what you want, I don`t care.

 

[Dan Detweiler]

Since were obviously playing "poem interpretation"`here instead of having an actual discourse I´ll wholeheartedly agree.
A nice day to you, too.


not worth commenting individually. Just bullshit.
Interpret what you want, I don`t care.

I had sausage and eggs for breakfast. Some really good coffee with a little bit of cream and sugar. Yum!

There, that's more discourse than we were ever having.
See ya.

Dan

 

[Dan Detweiler]

All this talk regarding FSD leads me to an honest question. Seems like many believe that full self driving is an all or nothing proposition. It either is or isn't. If that is indeed the case, can Tesla release full self driving features one at a time as they are developed? In other words could they release, say, stop sign recognition and then later stop light recognition, followed by right turn only autonomy, etc. Or...do they hold it all until all features are ready to go? The latter seems to be the method of some of the other players in autonomy. I kind of feel like Tesla will release it a feature at a time.

Dan

 

[J1mbo]

All this talk regarding FSD leads me to an honest question. Seems like many believe that full self driving is an all or nothing proposition. It either is or isn't. If that is indeed the case, can Tesla release full self driving features one at a time as they are developed? In other words could they release, say, stop sign recognition and then later stop light recognition, followed by right turn only autonomy, etc. Or...do they hold it all until all features are ready to go? The latter seems to be the method of some of the other players in autonomy. I kind of feel like Tesla will release it a feature at a time.

Dan

I think they would have to be very careful about that approach: as a driver you *have* to know when you are in charge of the car.

One of the reasons why the higher levels of autonomy (L3 & L4) insist on a controlled handover to the driver, unlike EAP which gives no warning!