Why are there no government fuel economy standards for EVs?
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Should EVs have efficiency standards?
- Thread starter juliusa
- Start date
destructure00
Active Member
What purpose would that serve? It's a fledgling industry already operating at the leading edge of battery technology. Adding new regulations won't make development go faster or breakthroughs happen faster.
DanCar
Active Member
There are. There is a standard how range is measured and MPGe.
Miles per gallon gasoline equivalent - Wikipedia
destructure00
Active Member
Maybe I'm misreading, but when I hear standards I think regulations or minimums like the required fleet-wide minimums for MPG for traditional MFGs.
Yes, that is what I meant. Government regulations like there are on ICE vehicles.
Energy has an environmental/societal cost - whether it is electricity or gasoline.
When they do the calculations for fleet standards, do they use MPGe? Or are they all EVs "ZEVs"?
MichaelP90DL
Active Member
And why do guys who fix ICE cars give me dirty looks?
Why do you feel government intervention is needed here? It’s in all EV manufacturer’s best interests to provide vehicles with as much range as possible, as that will draw more people to buy their product. So far no one has matched Tesla in this respect, but the competition among manufacturers to build better and longer range EV’s is alive and working, imho. Huge selling point if your EV has better range at a comparable price.
I don't. There is no need for government intervention in fuel efficiency standards. What is good for the EV is good for the ICE.
CoyoteJim
Member
Yes, this makes no sense. Ice vehicles have a 50% efficiency loss just in the drivetrain, so EVs are already twice as efficient than an equivalent ice vehicle at minimum. So you would have one standard for ice vehicles and another higher standard for EVs? A standard for EVs (other than the ice-based MPGe) only makes sense when the market is dominated by EVs.
I agree - and don't think government intervention is needed. Tesla builds very fuel-efficient EVs.
Same for ICE, right? It is in all ICE manufacturer's best interests to provide vehicles with as low a fuel cost as possible, as that will draw people to buy their product. Again, no government intervention needed.
It's not that black and white. While the ICE has losses in turning chemical energy into mechanical energy, EVs have similar losses from burning the same fuel to make electricity, then transporting it to the car and the multiple conversions required to actually charge the battery and then deliver that chemical energy to the motor. Both energy streams run through the refinery if using petroleum, but the EV at least has an option of being fueled by coal, nuclear and renewables.
Personally, I find the MPGe number of be of literally zero value in comparing anything other than EVs to EVs possibly. Even then the more frequently touted number of Wh/mi is just so much simpler to figure out and use. To use the MPGe number for anything practical you would need to know the MPGe number for your car, then use some constant to convert to kWh... or something possibly even harder to do in your head. There are no gallons in my car!
destructure00
Active Member
No, I believe it’s a slightly different situation, for a couple of reasons. I could be wrong on some of this, it’s not my area of expertise, but this is how I see it.
Range is far more important component to EV ownership than it is to ICE vehicles. Perception of the lack of EV range (the FUD) is one of the first reasons cited by those who look down on EV’s, and this reason alone keeps many people from adopting EV’s.
EV manufacturers have every reason to increase the efficiency of their batteries and motors, bringing the range close to, or even better than ICE vehicles, in order to allay the fears of those who fear leaving the familiar ICE behind.
The amount of energy in one gallon of gas is huge compared to batteries. Most of it goes up in heat. I think ICE vehicles have pretty much maxed out on efficiency, at best around 35% nowadays, of turning stored energy into movement.
Plus, many people aren’t necessarily looking for a cheaper gas bill until gas prices go far higher than they are now. Many people buy big V8 gas hogs for reason - speed and acceleration being one, towing, load carrying, etc, and they aren’t as concerned about the difference between 17 mpg and 20mpg. They aren’t necessarily putting efficiency at the top of the list.
If people prioritize better gas mileage, they don’t buy V8 gas hogs.
The range is far more an important feature to consumers when looking at an EV, and it’s completely a non-issue in ICE vehicles.
The three ways of increasing range that I can think of in EV’s is:
1. Larger existing technology batteries (expensive, adds lot of weight, takes up lot of space) or
2. More efficient use of the energy, although we are close to 90% conversion of stored energy to movement with electric motors already, I believe. A corollary would be lower drag coefficients and such
3. More efficient batteries with better energy density.
All a ICE manufacturer needs to do to increase range is put in a slightly bigger gas tank. This is easier and cheaper than increasing efficiency of energy use, but in an EV, increasing efficiency of motors and battery energy density to get better range is really the only way to go. With gas prices low, there is not as much pressure on driver’s to consider getting better mileage, since range is not the issue, just the price of gas.
“Fueling” my X costs me about 1/4 - 1/3 of fueling my Ram truck already, for the equivalent amount of miles driven. So the energy price of gas can’t really compete with electricity, because of the superior efficiency of an EV, even though there is a lot more energy in 6lbs of gas than in 6lbs of batteries.
So imo the quest for more range in EV’s automatically incentivizes more efficient use of energy, and negates any need for government intervention in EV efficiency.
Just my opinion, I’m sure there are more knowledgeable folks here who could speak better to this issue.
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CoyoteJim
Member
An ICE vehicle in total is 80% inefficient, 50% from the powertrain (sorry, not drivetrain).
“EVs convert about 59%–62% of the electrical energy from the grid to power at the wheels. Conventional gasoline vehicles only convert about 17%–21% of the energy stored in gasoline to power at the wheels.”
All-Electric Vehicles
Yes, different - though I was talking economy for ICE, not range. What is the same is the consumer determines what is important and the manufacturer delivers - range for EVs and economy for ICE. No need for the government to intervene in one and not the other.
Why set MPG standards and not MPGe standards?
We are standing on the precipice of it not mattering; solar self sufficiency in 30 years.
West coast lobbyists have legislated the collection of rain water, to be illegal. DC lobbyists are trying to configure the next war campaign and how to maintain it, as oil can't be their scapegoat or carrot anymore. Screw selling the solar collection back to the grid; power our homes and vehicles, the initial "cost" is on the homeowner, then it's virtually free. No reasons left to monitor except taxation, if they can get that twisted up.....
destructure00
Active Member
One manufacturer type has no motivation to improve unless threatened legally. The other must do it to survive.
Ok, then why set MPG standards? Or why not set MPGe standards for the next 30 years?
Why is it government's role to tell them what to produce - what is wrong with the consumer telling them?
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