The government specifically refused to do such a thing, knowing that it would lead to a mass cacophony of random noises. In the proposed rule, all vehicles of the same year, make, and model must sound the same with no provisions for customization.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
Should EVs Make Artificial Sounds at Low Speeds?
- Thread starter Brent
- Start date
-
- Tags
- Electric Vehicles
The government specifically refused to do such a thing, knowing that it would lead to a mass cacophony of random noises. In the proposed rule, all vehicles of the same year, make, and model must sound the same with no provisions for customization.
dandelot
Member
We've a stop sign at our corner and plenty of ICE cars make ~zero noise other than slight tire noise. The proposals are security theater.
Kurt Foster
Zero FX Stealthfighter
In my opinion, I think the artificial sound is a way for policy makers (possibly headed by lobbyists) to poke fun at this electric car thing. There's a reason you check your blind spot.
A poll isn't going to give us any real information here. This thread was more to discuss and debate the merits of the scheme.
The proposed rule still has no action, although the NHSTA is still looking at it. Two memoranda were added to the docket in February clarifying the cost comments made by Ford and BMW. I suspect they feel they don't have enough support, and the comments made by individuals are weighing it down (although some are anonymous and carry explicit language).
Regulations.gov
The proposed rule still has no action, although the NHSTA is still looking at it. Two memoranda were added to the docket in February clarifying the cost comments made by Ford and BMW. I suspect they feel they don't have enough support, and the comments made by individuals are weighing it down (although some are anonymous and carry explicit language).
Regulations.gov
Our Kia Soul has some artificial noises. I really thought it would bother me, but turns out does not bother me in the least. With the radio on and windows up, I do not even really hear them. As i usually drive with windows down however, I do hear them, and they actually are fairly unobtrusive. Necessary, I am not sure, bu definitely not worth a battle.
wish the i8's battery were bigger, so it's battery-only mode could be more appreciated.
when you accelerate in that mode, you get the most spectacular EV motor whine, maybe even better than what Saleen achieved with it's fully tuned Model S, but not as loud.
This is the sound of the future. (Nod to Formula E)
when you accelerate in that mode, you get the most spectacular EV motor whine, maybe even better than what Saleen achieved with it's fully tuned Model S, but not as loud.
This is the sound of the future. (Nod to Formula E)
Totally agree; though rather then a separate button have the horn sound ramp up, so a quick little short distance toot would be at low volume.
The gen 1 Volts have a "pedestrian" horn on the ends of one of the stalks. It beeps a lower horn than the main one. I am OK with something like that, but I don't like mandated noises.
I will say I do have to be super cautious in parking lots, as people can't hear me coming. Have done a lot of slow driving behind oblivious people walking in the main lanes of parking lots who don't know I am behind them.
I will say I do have to be super cautious in parking lots, as people can't hear me coming. Have done a lot of slow driving behind oblivious people walking in the main lanes of parking lots who don't know I am behind them.
int32_t
Tesla Spotter
If the government is smart enough to know that different noises will be a cacophony, then surely they should see that many of the same noises will be an equally striking cacophony.
And you know what? I'm cool with that. I would be more than happy to coast at 3 km/h in my Model 3 behind some oblivious people with shopping carts. It won't last for ever, and a moment later I'll be out of the lot cruising down the street. But then I don't shop at Costco ...
Nothing need be mandatory, but it would be a nice touch to include a small low-volume tweet horn to alert pedestrians. The government thinks they can keep us safe, but in the end it's up to the pedestrian to be alert and responsible and the driver to be off the phone.
Last edited:
If the government is smart enough to know that different noises will be a cacophony, then surely they should see that many of the same noises will be an equally striking cacophony.
And you know what? I'm cool with that. I would be more than happy to coast at 3 km/h in my Model 3 behind some oblivious people with shopping carts. It won't last for ever, and a moment later I'll be out of the lot cruising down the street. But then I don't shop at Costco ...
Nothing need be mandatory, but it would be a nice touch to include a small low-volume tweet horn to alert pedestrians. The government thinks they can keep us safe, but in the end it's up to the pedestrian to be alert and responsible and the driver to be off the phone.
Another thing is the frequency. A single frequency, especially a higher pitch frequency is much more difficult to locate than a spread spectrum of frequencies. I read an article back in the early 90s about the problem with the types of sirens that came into use in the 1980s. These used electronically generated noises which had far fewer frequencies in them than the old sirens generated by a mechanical device. So people couldn't locate where the siren was coming from and the even today the first thing everyone does when they hear a siren is look around for the lights because nobody can tell where it's coming from.
Back then someone had invented a spread spectrum electronic siren that was easier to locate by sound alone, but he couldn't get any takers.
I'm concerned the same thing will happen with the low speed noise makers. And it will be even worse if every car on the street moving slowly (like creeping up to a traffic light or traffic is crowded and creeping along like Manhattan most of the time) will be making similar noises that are all single frequencies. Pedestrians will just be confused by all the noises and nobody will know what direction they are coming from.
I hope the laws won't require low speed noise makers to always be enabled. The only time they are really needed is when you are moving slowly and approaching a blind spot like coming out of a parking garage. A parking garage here in town flashes lights and sounds a beeper when a car is leaving. Nobody ever walks on that particular street, but I think that's a better answer for pedestrians.
Scannerman
Member
Confiscating all smart phones would be more effective. Before you all start screaming, I did not say, that I would advocate such a move. Perhaps having a good looking nude blond appear from behind a screen, on a random basis, would raise the line of sight for the typical male pedestrian. That would solve nearly 50% of the problem.
Scannerman
Unfortunately, our government officials seem intent on mandating noise pollution from electric cars. This is basically a way to juice sales of gasoline cars.
This madness will probably end eventually, but not until all the gasoline cars are gone, and people start asking "Why is there so much unnecessary noise pollution", at which point the idiot law will be repealed.
The car already has a tool for alerting oblivious pedestrians -- it's called the horn.
Tesla already has a better solution in the works -- automatic brakes, triggered by the forward sensors detecting that there's someone too close in front of the car.
This madness will probably end eventually, but not until all the gasoline cars are gone, and people start asking "Why is there so much unnecessary noise pollution", at which point the idiot law will be repealed.
The car already has a tool for alerting oblivious pedestrians -- it's called the horn.
Tesla already has a better solution in the works -- automatic brakes, triggered by the forward sensors detecting that there's someone too close in front of the car.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Over this side of the pond (maybe over your way too?) the larger construction sites only allow heavy vehicles that have reversing sounders which produce white-noise, because pedestrians poorly estimated the location of vehicles using the older beep-beep type warnings. For years I thought the white-noise vehicles had reversed into something and had broken their sounders!
Check out the special klaxon for the Autolib EV, at 1:48 in the video:
There's a regular horn, but also a "cricket" button to notify pedestrians and cyclists in low-speed zones.
I use it all the time and people really appreciate the soft heads-up (there are over 4 000 Autolib with 50 000 subscribers in Paris).
I wish Tesla would implement something like this, at least as an option.
Edit: you can hear it from a pedestrian POV in this video (at 4:04):
(note that pressing the button activates it for 2-3 seconds only).
There's a regular horn, but also a "cricket" button to notify pedestrians and cyclists in low-speed zones.
I use it all the time and people really appreciate the soft heads-up (there are over 4 000 Autolib with 50 000 subscribers in Paris).
I wish Tesla would implement something like this, at least as an option.
Edit: you can hear it from a pedestrian POV in this video (at 4:04):
Last edited:
Ulmo
Active Member
Ugh. It has to be a pleasant sound that does not make young people or people with good hearing go deaf or get damaged hearing. We are not in the Rock Music age any more, so it is not expected that everyone will have hearing damage already. No need to make more handicapped people. If it is not a safe pleasant sound, guaranteed it will be disconnected and the cure will be worse than the disease. I could see people who get damaged hearing from the sound of it driving very fast through crowded pedestrian areas just so their ears don't hurt. I really hope the government has people smart enough to realize that when picking a sound, rather than Hollywood-style focus-grouping it.
No. Just no. A cricket sounds like a cricket. It won't help people because they'll think it's a small insect, like a cricket, rather than a big dangerous car. The focus groups got it wrong. The focus groups were probably packed with urban people who have never seen a tree, or at least never anything but a stupid dead Maple tree. It has to sound like a man made object worthy of hurting you, but not sound ominous, just big. Something man-made sounding and big but pleasant and not ear-damaging (even for those with good hearing). (btw, those gentlemen looked pleasant looking in the second video
)This does solve a problem. The reason that focus groups picked the ear-damaging beeps is that the deaf people on the focus groups could barely hear them, so they were able to locate them, while younger people who still have good hearing would hear the ear damaging beeps bouncing around from literally all directions and be accosted by the injurious nature of them, so they would basically recoil in horror, and eventually use ear plugs and ignore them since they are meaningless and constant (any normal construction site has about 500 vehicles making the noise whenever they back up, so it didn't mean a thing). I like the white noise idea in concept, but they still got it wrong: on a construction site, many pieces of equipment would both sound like and drown out any white noise. I can consider a construction site simply an extreme version of a busy urban area. Something besides soft white noise and harsh damaging beeps has to be picked; something melodic, orderly, yet identifiable and clearly audible while not being overly loud. A lower pitched noise would be a good start.
-----
Ok, so let me think. What sounds like a big man made object capable of stampeding you? First of all, I can think of an animal that is similar: an elephant. Even a large cat. Or a bear. So, if we take the trumpet of an elephant, the roar of a cat, or the growl of a bear, and mix them all together, and then try to find some man made noises that can adjust that, such as some music that is not clanging metal, nor high pitched beeps, nor anything ear damaging, and then sort of put a little art into it that is not insulting or noise polluting, then it would be a good foundation for a noise that makes sense.
Maybe a tuba? Essentially a quieter version of a fog horn from a distance. The tuba doesn't have the metal clanging problem. Since it's a tuba, a nice three note piece could be made that changes in tempo, melody and pitch according to speed, direction of turn, and acceleration (or deceleration). Matching which thing to which thing could be focus grouped, but not by a bunch of stupid people.
I propose starting with pitch for speed (higher pitch for higher speed, but all very low pitches both in upper and lower bounds of the sound speed range), tempo for acceleration (more tempo for more acceleration, less tempo for less acceleration), and the melody could start and end with the same note (3 notes) for straight, end with a slighty higher note for right turn, and end with a slightly lower note for left turn, and the pitch difference of the first to last note can be the angle of turn (more difference equals more angle of turn). The middle note could be in pitch roughly equal to the necessary stopping distance of the vehicle: higher for longer stopping distance, lower for shorter stopping distance; this would be a measure of reaction danger. The sound would be three notes, then a pause of two notes, so 5 beats per measure. This would allow both the ascertaining of which notes are first, middle, and last, to be able to guage direction and stopping distance, while allowing the ability to match one measure with the next measure so that the mind could track a single vehicle (I've heard notices that are either too frequent or too infrequent and fail on those marks). No note should ever exceed Middle C on a piano (261.626 Hertz) (and thus that would define the upper bound of the ranges), nor the decibels that would ever hurt any human ear. It should literally be a tuba sound that uses no metal sounds. Any blind person would instantly find this an easy regimen to learn and understand with pretty clear understanding.
Oh, and before the bean counters get to it and say "the speaker that makes a tuba sound is too expensive because it has to be too large", then I answer by saying, then disconnect the speaker and throw it in the garbage, because WE DON'T NEED ANY STINKING NOISES TO BEGIN WITH!!! So, if there's ever going to be any noise, the bean counters can get over it and put a proper system in, or else it will be bypassed and they might as well save the money and have no noise system.
Last edited:
