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Should EVs Make Artificial Sounds at Low Speeds?
- Thread starter Brent
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- Electric Vehicles
Hard to tell. I don't think any of the government wizards has determined what the minimum Db level that is acceptable for a car . That would have to apply to ICE or EV.
No, because they're not always on. But the whole fuss over noise is nothing but a baldfaced pile of FUD from haters who will do anything to oppose electric cars, probably funded by oil companies. Plenty of gas cars are too quiet for a pedestrian to ear over the random noise of the environment. And because of the performance tires, Teslas actually make more noise than some gas cars.
I was thinking software could active them at low speeds/ geolocated areas to provide a "I'm here" noise source without additional HW.
Agree, ICE cars can be just as quiet.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
It's not FUD. While I hole-heartedly agree that there should not be any legislation to force cars to have these devices, I've already sold about a dozen of my EV-Horn units to people who believe they have a specific need for such a device to warn people in parking lots who just can't hear an EV creeping up behind them. These people are not haters who will do anything to oppose EVs. They are multiple Tesla owners. I've used it many times with different fun sounds, and people can hear it, and move out of the way.. instead of just blaring the regular horn, which tends to really piss people off.
Everyone has a different opinion on the need for this, and that's fine. I'm not going to argue it one way or another. But people who want a sound that isn't obnoxious and won't scare people when you're right behind them, they can get one. People who don't believe it's necessary, that's fine too. Nobody is focing you to do so.
But it's far from a black+white issue or "FUD" (or "funded by the oil companies" -- WHAT?). There is a clear need for a pedestrian horn. Luckily, at least for now, you have the choice to use one or not.
Finally, let's keep the issues straight. There are two very different issues.
First, is the need for such a device which is purely a personal decision.
Second, is proposed legislation to force cars to have a device installed and make sounds at low speeds without the driver's input. Please, let's keep them separate.
I contend that it is FUD. But the difference is a confusion that you touched on, but didn't quite go far enough with.
I agree that it is FABULOUS to have a user-operated pedestrian warning "friendly" sound. For ALL cars at parking lot speed. My EV1 had this by pulling the "high beam" stalk. It would flash the brights and give a friendly warble. Super handy, and perfect to have. I miss it on all of my subsequent cars.
The FUD comes in with the contention that all EVs should be making sound all the time. That's BS, IMO. Part of the BS is that the legislation says nothing about the natural sound level emanating from a vehicle. This "must make artificial sound at low speed" is only attached to cars with electric propulsion, in the presumption that only EVs are quiet. So apparently a quiet gas car (most modern cars) doesn't need this but EVs do?? And of course we're still looking for the evidence that shows EV drivers are mowing down blind people at an alarming rate.
Right... and your device is NOT what this discussion is about. Who could argue with having the ability to make a happy sound when needed? The only argument I know of, is where the car constantly makes an artificial sound.
It makes more sense to say "... who just can't hear a quiet car creeping up behind them." This should not be only about EVS! Which is the whole point, I think... in why many claim that this is FUD. Why are people afraid of EVs if they aren't afraid of other quiet cars?
My point too!
Ya know... it is the job of the driver of ANY vehicle to not run people over. It doesn't matter how load the car is... unless we've just given up on having skilled drivers, and all cars into the future will honk the horn constantly, and have a rotating beacon on the roof.[/QUOTE]
The law as it is now requires electric vehicles to make an artificial noise below 18 mph. That will make stop and go traffic on freeway much more annoying. In a few years there will be a cacophony of different noises all blended together into a tapestry of noise that will be maddening for many people who have to hear it. And the odds there are pedestrians on the freeway is pretty small.
Cities with slow traffic all the time like Manhattan will also becomes noisy messes. I haven't been to New York, but my SO stayed there many years ago for a few nights. She had enough trouble sleeping due to the traffic noise. Imagine thousands of EV noise makers adding to the noise pollution?
Another time that will be annoying is first thing in the morning in neighborhoods when your neighbor's car is making noises going up the street while you're trying to sleep in. We had a neighbor for a year or so (he was a renter) with a big diesel pickup and he liked to warm it up on cold mornings by starting it and letting it idle for up to 30 minutes. This was less than 50 feet from our bedroom window. Then once we're fully awake we could hear him drive all the way down the hill. He was an early riser who would be out of the house before 6 AM.
An EV wouldn't make noise as long, but it could be even more annoying.
When my SO was having a number of medical procedres we had to leave the house very early some mornings around 4 to get to the hospital. I was thankful to have a silent car that wasn't waking up the neighbors when we left. The odds of encountering any human pedestrians at that hour was nil, though we did see some wildlife.
I'm all in favor of some kind of artificial noise an EV can make when there is a good chance there will be pedestrians around, but the rest of the time I prefer the silence.
Cities with slow traffic all the time like Manhattan will also becomes noisy messes. I haven't been to New York, but my SO stayed there many years ago for a few nights. She had enough trouble sleeping due to the traffic noise. Imagine thousands of EV noise makers adding to the noise pollution?
Another time that will be annoying is first thing in the morning in neighborhoods when your neighbor's car is making noises going up the street while you're trying to sleep in. We had a neighbor for a year or so (he was a renter) with a big diesel pickup and he liked to warm it up on cold mornings by starting it and letting it idle for up to 30 minutes. This was less than 50 feet from our bedroom window. Then once we're fully awake we could hear him drive all the way down the hill. He was an early riser who would be out of the house before 6 AM.
An EV wouldn't make noise as long, but it could be even more annoying.
When my SO was having a number of medical procedres we had to leave the house very early some mornings around 4 to get to the hospital. I was thankful to have a silent car that wasn't waking up the neighbors when we left. The odds of encountering any human pedestrians at that hour was nil, though we did see some wildlife.
I'm all in favor of some kind of artificial noise an EV can make when there is a good chance there will be pedestrians around, but the rest of the time I prefer the silence.
Right? If we use the same logic of the noise-maker needing to broadcast every time the car is below 18 mph, regardless of "need" ... and apply it to the real horn... just in case somebody needs to be honked at, maybe we should run the horn all the time too? It makes no sense. I guess pedestrians and cyclists should also make extra sound. I've seen other people (and hey, even drivers!) be surprised when they show up unannounced. Horns for everybody!
Yes, make it user-operated. Just like the horn. When it is needed, it can be activated. When you're pulling away from home at 4am... not so much.
And again... it is the driver's duty to not run over things. Even if they don't hear you coming. And even if the driver is behind the wheel of a quiet gas car.
HankLloydRight
No Roads
I can tell you from my personal experience with my own device, that it's perfectly audible in a quiet parking lot moving at <5mph. Any faster than that, the tire noise totally drowns out the pedestrian horn and nobody can hear it inside or outside the car, even just a few feet away. I don't know what the legislation says for a limit on the decibels of a PH, but if it's anything like mine, you'll never hear it due to all the other noises around. It serves the purpose well without really being audible outside of the intended environment in which it is meant to be used. It's certainly nowhere near equivalent to a huge diesel motor idling nearby.
You joined just a little before I did, but I was not active here much for a long time. I got back on when I reserved my Model 3, which I've had now for about half a year, I think. Have you been active here all this time?
I'd actually really like a back-up beeper that could be turned on and off. I had that on my Xebra, and it was nice. I used it for backing out of blind parking slots
I'd actually really like a back-up beeper that could be turned on and off. I had that on my Xebra, and it was nice. I used it for backing out of blind parking slots
I also only got active after my Model 3 reservation. But unlike you, I'm still waiting (see signature).
Anything that's user-selectable is great by me. But really... the EV1 implementation covers this as well. You pull the stalk to make the warble tone before backing (even during if you wish) to make your own "happy" warning sound at any time you please. The stalk can be found without looking for it...same as flashing the brights.
I'll bite (as an i8 owner).
The fake engine noise is determined by the position of the gear lever, so when not in sport mode it doesn't activate. In comfort mode (the default) a lot of the time you'll be on electric at slow speeds, a bit like in a Prius, be it a Prius with a really big battery.
In Sport mode the engine is forced always on and the engine sound is piped into the cabin. (This works by taking the actual sound of the engine and playing it back with an audio delay of 1/2 an RPM. As the car has 3 cylinders, this makes it sound like it has 6 cylinders). Personally I'd rather the engine noise augmentation system could be activated separately from the driving mode (enabling sport mode changes the damper settings, throttle response, battery charging and forces the EV motor to kick in more for performance, than for economy.).
The external noise is not unlike the inverter whine in the Model S, and is speed dependent. It doesn't sound at all like an ICE. It can be switched off from the infotainment system's vehicle settings, but will turn back on next time the car is turned on.
The engine is sourced from a Mini Cooper S. In the configuration fitted to the i8 it is BMW's highest output per litre unit across their entire range. It is most definitely not a lawnmower engine. Are you confused with the i3 REX unit?
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
Clever, I like the sound of that (except for the fact that I've got used to silent-EV and no longer need the Vroom Vrrom. My V8 Lotus-7 "Hooligan" thingie has remained in the garage since I had the Tesla ...
No, I was being derogatory, for which I apologise.
I have been fully impressed, all along, that a "3 cylinder ... engine" can deliver such amazing performance. I never bothered to investigate why (as it is not a car suitable for me), but:
very helpful to have your explanation, thanks.
Personally I think that PHEV is the way forwards (short term). EVs are battery-supply limited until enough factories built, and putting 40kWh battery in every vehicle plus a small ICE, rather than me squandering a 90kWh battery for the couple of days a month when I am out-of-range, would mean that far more miles, overall, were driven on Battery with a reduction in pollution, heath-care issues for children, and reduction in oil imports. Easy transition for Owners too, with no range anxiety.
@WannabeOwner The more time I spend with the BMW, the more I appreciate the engineering that went into it.
The complete re-thinking of the carbon fibre manufacturing techniques that were developed for it's construction are the main headline grabber, but the fitting of the 1.5l 3 cylinder using the EV motor-generator and front motor in combination to provide "torque fill" to bolster the performance while the engine / turbo spools up is really impressive in practise. What should feel like a buzzy, turbo-lagggy slow spooling 3 cylinder, in practise feels like it has larger displacement than my V6 Supercharged Exige.
I know a lot of the Internet peanut gallery have said "Fit a V8/10/12 and it would be a much better car"... This might be true from a sales perspective but I think what BMW have done with the drive train is far more impressive than taking the easy route and throwing in a big displacement ICE.
Two last pieces of i8 trivia. It was the first car to have chemically hardened glass. It was the first production car to come with Laser headlights.
Somewhat ironically - despite all this - it will probably be the last new car I buy with an ICE.
The complete re-thinking of the carbon fibre manufacturing techniques that were developed for it's construction are the main headline grabber, but the fitting of the 1.5l 3 cylinder using the EV motor-generator and front motor in combination to provide "torque fill" to bolster the performance while the engine / turbo spools up is really impressive in practise. What should feel like a buzzy, turbo-lagggy slow spooling 3 cylinder, in practise feels like it has larger displacement than my V6 Supercharged Exige.
I know a lot of the Internet peanut gallery have said "Fit a V8/10/12 and it would be a much better car"... This might be true from a sales perspective but I think what BMW have done with the drive train is far more impressive than taking the easy route and throwing in a big displacement ICE.
Two last pieces of i8 trivia. It was the first car to have chemically hardened glass. It was the first production car to come with Laser headlights.
Somewhat ironically - despite all this - it will probably be the last new car I buy with an ICE.
If this crap keeps going I suspect someone legislator will introduce a bill requiring bicyclists to put card in their spokes like the 1950s.
We need to stop wasting legislative time on these issues and focus on bigger issues. Such as getting the cost of healthcare down, homelessness, violence, retraining people for jobs of the future, etc.
We need to stop wasting legislative time on these issues and focus on bigger issues. Such as getting the cost of healthcare down, homelessness, violence, retraining people for jobs of the future, etc.
gg_got_a_tesla
Model S: VIN 65513, Model 3: VIN 1913
The Jaguar I-Pace's noisemaker isn't so bad?!
Jaguar I-Pace originally sounded like a UFO, but people kept looking up
Jaguar I-Pace originally sounded like a UFO, but people kept looking up
Candleflame
Active Member
the problem is not that EVs are required to make noise, the problem is that ICE cars are not even though modern ICE cars are superquiet. Particularly in europe where everyone drives tiny 1L or 1.4L engines which you can't even hear standing next to them.
I have only ever seen a Tesla once while I was walking and I remember turning around because the tyre noise was so obnoxious even at pedestrian speed. This makes sense as its tyres are twice as wide as what the average car probably has in the UK and the car itself doesnt even fit into a normal UK parking spot.
Eevee
Member
I think it's ridiculous to make EVs become louder.
Sound/hearing is not a requirement for being a pedestrian and is not considered a disability for walking. You don't see deaf people using hearing dogs as guides for walking around town. It's not even a disability for driving. Deaf people can easily obtain driver's licenses.
Noise pollution is a real thing. Not only does it do damage to the welfare of animals and reduce their habitats, it has also proven to lower children's IQs and increase people's stress levels.
Sound/hearing is not a requirement for being a pedestrian and is not considered a disability for walking. You don't see deaf people using hearing dogs as guides for walking around town. It's not even a disability for driving. Deaf people can easily obtain driver's licenses.
Noise pollution is a real thing. Not only does it do damage to the welfare of animals and reduce their habitats, it has also proven to lower children's IQs and increase people's stress levels.
