Should EVs Make Artificial Sounds at Low Speeds?

[AmokTime]

Well, aside from forum posts detailing precisely how you plan to do it.

For myself, I don’t plan to do it- I don’t mind the sound that much if it’s federally-mandated, and I can’t really hear it from inside the car with the windows up anyway. I’m just putting the idea out there, though it’s a pretty obvious one.

 

[jboy210]

This is exactly what prompted me to create the WASP Pedestrian horn. (see sig). People say that pedestrians can hear tire noise, but not in my experience with the Model S. When clueless people in front of me finally realize there's a silent car creeping up behind them, they're usually quite startled. And using my regular horn would just be too obnoxious.

We have come up behind kids on bikes that wobbled down the road in front of our 2018 X which has no slow speed sound.

 

[stopcrazypp]

This is exactly what prompted me to create the WASP Pedestrian horn. (see sig). People say that pedestrians can hear tire noise, but not in my experience with the Model S. When clueless people in front of me finally realize there's a silent car creeping up behind them, they're usually quite startled. And using my regular horn would just be too obnoxious.

Well, if you are stationary or close to stationary, there isn't going to be any tire noise. The Volt had a similar horn for the same purpose.

That said, if you ask the same question of higher end luxury cars, I'm pretty sure for a lot of them the same thing applies (pedestrians can't really hear them when they are stationary or creeping). What I'm particularly against is that this law only applies to EVs and hybrids (not even sure if it applies to mild hybrids). If this applied to all cars, I'm actually more for it. If EVs have to lose their quietness, why should luxury cars not have to add noisemakers to make their cars louder also?

Also the proposal in the first place did poorly to control for variables (like the fact that hybrids/EVs were more popular in areas with more pedestrians/cyclists). Then there's also the fact that at the speeds where there is no tire noise (as mentioned above), the probably of injury is extremely low. People may get "startled" from not being aware there was a car, but that's different from them being injured from it.

But it is what it is, and we have to live with it. In the driver's seat, it's not really that big a deal as you can't really hear the noise if you have your windows up, but it's just more noise pollution when outside.

 

[Merrill]

I have mentioned this before, I’m against a noise maker in an EV. I live on a narrow country road that is popular for walkers, when I drive my F-150 these people do not move even though they know I’m behind them. They walk on both sides of the road and leave no room to pass, they look at me like I’m not supposed to be driving on the road. Walking dog in the middle of the road and make no attempt to pull them to the side. It makes no difference weather I drive an ice or EV they are clueless.

 

[AmokTime]

I have mentioned this before, I’m against a noise maker in an EV. I live on a narrow country road that is popular for walkers, when I drive my F-150 these people do not move even though they know I’m behind them. They walk on both sides of the road and leave no room to pass, they look at me like I’m not supposed to be driving on the road. Walking dog in the middle of the road and make no attempt to pull them to the side. It makes no difference weather I drive an ice or EV they are clueless.

Maybe instead of a noise maker they need a cowcatcher.

 

[tga]

Yes, I read that. In fact, it was to that post that I was responding. What I’m saying is that deleting a silent PWS sound takes a lot less time and effort than crawling under your car and reconnecting a wiring harness. And it’s a lot less noticeably executed, too. Deleting a silent sound file leaves little observable evidence of its having once been there.

If the accident is bad enough, you may not have a chance to undo it before your insurance company takes the (totaled) car.

 

[jboy210]

If the accident is bad enough, you may not have a chance to undo it before your insurance company takes the (totaled) car.

Worse, in the case of an accident, any effort to cover up the alteration of the vehicle could be considered criminal behavior.

 

[AmokTime]

Worse, in the case of an accident, any effort to cover up the alteration of the vehicle could be considered criminal behavior.

Just keep in mind that I mentioned this as an alternative to disconnecting wiring harnesses or stuffing newspaper into the speaker. If people want no noise, they’re going to have no noise one way or another. This is just a better way to do it. If you want no noise but you’d still like to be able to restore it at the touch of a button, silent sound file might be the best solution.

 

[daniel]

A silent sound file would certainly be an easier way to break the law than messing with the wiring of the car. An old saying is "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time." Be aware of the penalties in your jurisdiction and be prepared for the consequences if you choose to make illegal alterations to your car, whether in hardware or software.

To repeat what I've said before: I'm against requiring cars to make noise, but I think that ALL cars should have a user-switchable back-up beeper for backing out of blind parking spaces. I had that in my Zap Xebra, and I really liked having it.

 

[AmokTime]

A silent sound file would certainly be an easier way to break the law than messing with the wiring of the car. An old saying is "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time." Be aware of the penalties in your jurisdiction and be prepared for the consequences if you choose to make illegal alterations to your car, whether in hardware or software.

To repeat what I've said before: I'm against requiring cars to make noise, but I think that ALL cars should have a user-switchable back-up beeper for backing out of blind parking spaces. I had that in my Zap Xebra, and I really liked having it.

I’m not sure disabling the sound is even breaking the law at the moment. The feds legislated a requirement that car manufacturers include the PWS, but it’s up to states to legislate motor vehicle code that would require it or criminalize disabling it. I searched PA’s code and couldn’t find anything, though PA is probably late to the party on anything not related to alcohol. As other have suggested, it is possible that you could face increased civil liability if you hit a person while it is disabled, but it’s probably not something that is “illegal” yet, at least in PA. We will not likely see any legislation on this until PA is ready to make the testing of PWS a part of annual vehicle safety inspections.

 

[stopcrazypp]

I’m not sure disabling the sound is even breaking the law at the moment. The feds legislated a requirement that car manufacturers include the PWS, but it’s up to states to legislate motor vehicle code that would require it or criminalize disabling it. I searched PA’s code and couldn’t find anything, though PA is probably late to the party on anything not related to alcohol. As other have suggested, it is possible that you could face increased civil liability if you hit a person while it is disabled, but it’s probably not something that is “illegal” yet, at least in PA. We will not likely see any legislation on this until PA is ready to make the testing of PWS a part of annual vehicle safety inspections.

Depends on what "entity subject to the authority of the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration" means (INAL so I don't know). If individual drivers are considered that, you would be breaking that federal law, even without a corresponding state law. Also NHTSA does have enforcement powers in terms of fining companies (this is different than NTSB for example which does not).

An example in the Tesla world is NHTSA issuing a C&D letter to Autopilot Buddy.
CONSUMER ADVISORY: NHTSA Deems ‘Autopilot Buddy’ Product Unsafe | NHTSA

Obviously it's not very likely NHTSA will bother doing that for individuals, nor do they have the personnel to check for it (as per my comment's that's up to the states). You biggest risk at the moment is still a civil suit if anything happens.

 

[daniel]

I’m not sure disabling the sound is even breaking the law at the moment. The feds legislated a requirement that car manufacturers include the PWS, but it’s up to states to legislate motor vehicle code that would require it or criminalize disabling it. I searched PA’s code and couldn’t find anything, though PA is probably late to the party on anything not related to alcohol. As other have suggested, it is possible that you could face increased civil liability if you hit a person while it is disabled, but it’s probably not something that is “illegal” yet, at least in PA. We will not likely see any legislation on this until PA is ready to make the testing of PWS a part of annual vehicle safety inspections.

In the U.S. laws can vary quite a bit from state to state. That's why I say "Know the law in your jurisdiction." I have no idea what the law is in any given place. I was going by earlier posts that said, or suggested, that it's illegal.

A more complicated issue is the question: If the law requires the noisemaker but does not criminalize disabling it, then what happens if you hit a pedestrian after having disabled it? Then it becomes a matter of who has the better lawyer: You or the insurance company that's suing you? Because now the question is not whether you committed a crime, but whether you are at fault for the accident because you disabled a mandated warning device.

As much as I hate noise, I will not be disabling any mandated devices.

 

[Hayseed_MS]

I just took delivery of my first EV/Tesla (refreshed Model S). Prior to this I did not want this noise - I kept envisioning an ice cream truck driving through the parking lot. Well after having it for almost 1 week (800+ miles), I can say the noise is very faint with the windows down and barely noticeable to those around you unless in an enclosed space. Really kind of an anti-climatic nothingburger.

 

[tccartier]

I just took delivery of my first EV/Tesla (refreshed Model S). Prior to this I did not want this noise - I kept envisioning an ice cream truck driving through the parking lot. Well after having it for almost 1 week (800+ miles), I can say the noise is very faint with the windows down and barely noticeable to those around you unless in an enclosed space. Really kind of an anti-climatic nothingburger.

That's probably exactly how it's perceived by most all the pedestrians in the vicinity of your car also or any car making such noise. Once all cars have it it'll just be a sea of noise that nobody will pay any attention to anyhow.

 

[Dave EV]

I just took delivery of my first EV/Tesla (refreshed Model S). Prior to this I did not want this noise - I kept envisioning an ice cream truck driving through the parking lot. Well after having it for almost 1 week (800+ miles), I can say the noise is very faint with the windows down and barely noticeable to those around you unless in an enclosed space. Really kind of an anti-climatic nothingburger.

Tesla did a good job of making the noise unobtrusive, unlike some other vehicles whose backup chimes are horrendously loud (I'm looking at you, Kia and to a lesser degree, Nissan).

 

[Skotty]

Tesla did a good job of making the noise unobtrusive, unlike some other vehicles whose backup chimes are horrendously loud (I'm looking at you, Kia and to a lesser degree, Nissan).

I agree. I was against EV noise makers from the beginning. But Tesla has done a good job of making the sound unobnoxious. I have the back up sound on my 3 and I'm okay with it, despite being very anti-noise from the beginning (and still am anti-noise, but the way Tesla did it, I can live with it)

 

[EVer Hopeful]

I'm not going to read seventy eight pages, so this has probably already been mentioned: Why buy a vehicle partly because it doesn't pollute (by burning dead dinosaurs), and then explicitly make it pollute by adding noise

and yes, noise IS pollution

 

[drtimhill]

I'm not going to read seventy eight pages, so this has probably already been mentioned: Why buy a vehicle partly because it doesn't pollute (by burning dead dinosaurs), and then explicitly make it pollute by adding noise

Because politicians .. need I say more. For example, I was standing next to a Rolls Royce the other day (gas engine) .. made no sound at all apart from wheel noise. Yet is doesnt need a house maker. Why? Cause to our not very bright politicians, EVs dont make noise and gas engines do.

In fact, I have several functionally deaf friends, and they think the law is stupid. It doesnt help them at all, and just makes it HARDER for them to hear what it going on. As one of them said, "why do they think adding MORE noise to a road will help?" And the same goes for a couple of blind people I spoke to (my ex helps out with partially sighted and partially deaf groups). They say the same thing.

 

[daniel]

I'm not going to read seventy eight pages, so this has probably already been mentioned: Why buy a vehicle partly because it doesn't pollute (by burning dead dinosaurs), and then explicitly make it pollute by adding noise

and yes, noise IS pollution

It's all part of the anti-EV backlash. I suspect that the oil industry is behind it.

However, as I've said before, I am strongly in favor of switchable backup beepers. For all cars. My Zap Xebra had a backup beeper and I had it wired through a switch. I turned it on when backing out of parking spaces in parking lots.

 

[N4HHE]

It is EV hate. If such a regulation was necessary or useful then it would apply to all vehicles. Many conventional automobiles are very very near as quiet as an EV. The tires are the loudest sound from most vehicles passing my house.

And secondly has anyone actually listened in an urban grocery store parking lot? It is quite loud. Hard to hear anything.