TMC is an independent, primarily volunteer organization that relies on ad revenue to cover its operating costs. Please consider whitelisting TMC on your ad blocker and becoming a Supporting Member. For more info: Support TMC
Start a Discussionhttps://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/tags/

Should FSDC (Full Self-Driving Capabilities) be an option right now?

Discussion in 'Model S' started by CTgigawatt, Mar 21, 2017.

  1. CTgigawatt

    CTgigawatt 2017 Model S 60D

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2016
    Messages:
    33
    Location:
    Connecticut
    As a Model S owner who purchased EAP on AP2 hardware, I wanted to know everyone's thoughts on FSDC.

    FSDC is currently a $3,000 option ($4,000 after taking delivery).

    Is this really fair? Tesla is charging $3,000 for an option that doesn't exist and will clearly not exist in the near-term future (unlike EAP, which should). Should Tesla instead offer FSDC as a $3,000 after delivery only (once tech and regulatory hurdles are cleared), and prorate the cost for lease holders who turn their cars in?

    I have a three year lease, and it would be insane to pay $4,000 for say 1.5 years of usage with FSDC.

    I find it somewhat immoral that Tesla is charging $3,000 for a software option that is not exactly on he horizon.

    Thoughts?
     
    • Like x 2
  2. Buddy

    Buddy Member

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2016
    Messages:
    499
    Location:
    Riverside County
    As you said...its an option.

    I dont think it is immoral to give people the opportunity to do something. It is not lumped into a package nor into the base price of the car.

    Buy it for what it is...a future feature.
     
    • Like x 3
  3. TexasEV

    TexasEV Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2013
    Messages:
    5,213
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Some people who are financing the car and plan to keep it for many years may want to buy the option now to roll the price into the loan. Otherwise, I can't see why anyone would pay now unless they don't know any better. I'm amazed by some of the comments and questions here (like "why doesn't my car have autopilot?") from people who paid >$100,000 for a car and did almost zero research before buying it.
     
    • Like x 2
    • Funny x 1
  4. M0DEL³

    M0DEL³ Dilluting Kool-Aid with Realism daily.

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2016
    Messages:
    144
    Location:
    Missouri
    #4 M0DEL³, Mar 21, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
    As Buddy stated, It is "Optional", so those who bite clearly share responsibility for any situational dissatisfaction. And paraphrasing what you stated, "Purchasing FSD on a leased vehicle is total insanity". I'd also argue that rolling the dice on FSD vaporware (pre-proof) for $1K in savings, even on a purchase, is also illogical - but that's me.

    To address your query more directly: Selling a "currently non-functional feature", with no guarantees on future performance/timeline, even to time-restricted lessees - is not one of the most respectable business decisions we have seen come out of Fremont. IMO, this goes into a similar ethics bucket as undocumented launch-counter restrictions, misleading battery capacity marketing, etc.

    There is definitely room for Tesla to improve it's marketing ethics. I chose to be optimistic, and hope we are on a road towards such improvements.
     
    • Like x 2
  5. J1mbo

    J1mbo Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2013
    Messages:
    922
    Location:
    UK
    If you lease through Tesla, it costs about $50/month, or about $1,800 over the period of the lease. Worth a punt IMO.

    Paying $4000 for it as an upgrade later would be a bit silly.
     
  6. ShockOnT

    ShockOnT Quickish

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2016
    Messages:
    1,317
    Location:
    Sydney
    It's Tesla's version of a Kickstarter campaign :)
     
    • Like x 3
    • Funny x 3
    • Informative x 1
    • Love x 1
  7. green1

    green1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    4,550
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta, Canada
    The immoral part is implying that the car will ever be capable of driving itself without human intervention while not providing the hardware necessary to do so.

    But hey, they got away with making false claims on AP1, so why not do it again on AP2?

    I'll be shocked if "full self driving" ever even meets the AP1 promises, let alone those for AP2.
     
    • Like x 3
  8. boaterva

    boaterva Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2016
    Messages:
    2,671
    Location:
    Northern Virginia, USA
    Well, Elon has said FSD features will start to become apparent in, what, six months? I don't even remember because we all know how loose those promises are. But my point is, there is some reason to believe that the FSD option could be useful in addition to EAP 'soon'.

    If I was leasing a new car would I add it? Probably not. Purchase? Maybe.

    I think we need to remember it's not a binary 'it can drive itself at level 5' but a lot of added capability incrementally added beyond EAP.
     
  9. OBX John

    OBX John Autonomous Driving Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2016
    Messages:
    389
    Location:
    Outer Banks, North Carolina
    I was just thinking today that I had changed my mind, and wish I had not bought it. I'd be surprised if the FSD option shows any benefit to owners in 2017. I would, however, love to eat my words.

    It makes much more sense to pay the $4000 once the feature becomes worth it. Let them offer it, but I'd advise any new owner to wait and see given the AP2 delays.
     
    • Like x 2
    • Disagree x 1
  10. electracity

    electracity Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2015
    Messages:
    2,629
    Location:
    60606
    Claiming FSDC as an option is a Trump-like move.

    Musk can't know if the technology is capable of FSDC. He wants it to be true. So it is true.

    It is particularly amazing that they made the choice to list FSDC immediately after a nasty divorce from Mobileye. A divorce in which it increasingly looks like Musk is the one out on the front lawn with his furniture.

    The AP2 cars will eventually be much more capable than the AP1 cars. Tesla could have just made that selling point instead of going full Donald.
     
    • Funny x 3
    • Like x 2
  11. spooky981

    spooky981 Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2016
    Messages:
    72
    Location:
    Washington DC
    The real crime is Elon's hype-train press conferences talking about your car dropping you off and parking itself, an unattended vehicle driving from West Cost to East Coast, or making money from a driverless uber-like program while you aren't using it. Optimistically that's a decade away.

    Elon delivers on about 60% of his hype. Fortunately even 60% results in a really good vehicle. But I swear sometimes when a microphone gets put in front of his face he starts seamlessly blurring his fantasies with what's really technologically achievable.
     
  12. DÆrik

    DÆrik Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    Messages:
    574
    Location:
    Colorado
    I paid for FSD on my Model S 100D that I just picked up. I replaced my 90D that I picked up in June 2016 because of AP 2.0 and it having FSD capabilities (in the future). Yes, I understand I might not see FSD anytime soon, but I wanted to be sure I get it. Should more hardware/sensors be required, I would guess they would need to install it on my car (such as dual Nvidia Drive PX 2, other sensors, etc.)

    Also the biggest thing for me. The upgrade cost to add FSD after purchase, could always increase in price..

    Thanks Erik
     
    • Like x 5
    • Funny x 1
  13. Doctt

    Doctt Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2017
    Messages:
    130
    Location:
    Los angles
    If I did not do join this forum before I placed my order, I would have added the FSD option as well because of the video it shows on their website. That video made me think the technology is almost ready. Just need fine tuning and regulatory approval.

    After seeing the slow progress on autopilot on HW2, I think it would be at least 1 year away to even see a limited roll out...let alone regulatory approval. Since I am on lease, I may as well wait until i get my next car.

    I think that video will come back and bite them if they don't roll out FSD soon.
     
    • Like x 2
  14. idealsol

    idealsol Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2016
    Messages:
    221
    Location:
    Orange County, Ca
    On our Dec 2016 purchase, we paid for AEP but not FSD
    We made the choice to wait, as it seemed any real benefit was way down the line
    If/When it actually works, we will likely buy it then.
    And sure, the cost could be more than the current 4K, or 3k if I got it originally
     
  15. azred

    azred Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    732
    Location:
    Chandler, AZ
    About as silly as leasing a personal luxury vehicle.
     
  16. googleiscoul

    googleiscoul Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2017
    Messages:
    87
    Location:
    Aldie VA
    I really think the technology might be ready besides some extra computing power + more sensors, I also think the software is getting better. I don't think we know how much of the success from ap1 is from tesla's side so that is another real area of concern. Will Tesla be able to create a safe algorithm that encompasses all danger on the road, just as well as they did with Mobil eye sensors (with exeptions). I ordered a car a week ago I did add fsd with the hope it will be done at least till the next competitor catches up. (I am keeping for a while)
     
  17. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2013
    Messages:
    4,773
    Location:
    Delaware
    #17 Saghost, Mar 21, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
    We buy the S and X knowing that Tesla has priced it for a much higher gross margin than is typical in the industry, either because the car is that much better or because we believe in the mission and can look at it as a ~$10-15k donation towards a better future plus a really great car.

    I kinda look at buying FSDC now the same way - a donation towards a better future. Most likely some FSDC features will show up sometime this year, and hopefully it'll be almost autonomous by late next year, though it'll take quite a while longer for the regulations to support it and Tesla to get all the corner cases settled.

    But if I were buying now, I think I would buy FSDC even knowing it might not turn up for years, because it isn't about just me and my maximum profit/minimum loss. :)

    (I have a late AP1 X instead, so I'm probably going to wait until FSDC more or less shows up to upgrade, since I know Tesla will keep making it a better car through the interim. I'm also hoping they bring back my favorite colors and interior bits, or at least add some interesting new ones.)
     
    • Like x 1
  18. googleiscoul

    googleiscoul Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2017
    Messages:
    87
    Location:
    Aldie VA
    Well either way it'll be great for me - my first tesla
     
  19. AZ Desert Driver

    AZ Desert Driver Genesis - The Beginning - MS75D

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2016
    Messages:
    924
    Location:
    Tucson AZ
    There is/was the conversation "when are you going to release AP2". There were to be wiring harnesses, camera, sensors that would let a car be AP2, and then later FSDC. They alway had a problem with making the hardware and software appear at the same point in time. The anticipation of missing out on AP2 hardware was hurting sales. I almost did not pull the trigger on my car, but waiting for AP2 even another month would have cost me my color option.
    I don't see any problem with them getting the hardware into the wild, collecting information from the stealth miles, before releasing the finished software. I also don't see a problem charging for the hardware that is in the car, even if it is not fully functional.
     
  20. Haxster

    Haxster Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    Messages:
    546
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Since FSD may be years off, it's possible that:

    1. Some new SD-like features might appear on FSD vehicles, but not on AP2s.
    This will keep FSD owners from feeling that they've been ripped off and provide
    an incentive for current owners to buy the FSD upgrade and for new buyers to
    order the FSD option. This should also increase FSD resale value a bit.

    2. If/when FSD is actually getting close, likely hardware upgrades to FSD vehicles
    may be done for free. These upgrades could be expensive for Tesla to do.
    Consequently, the upgrade penalty to add FSD to non-FSD cars could be much
    more than the current $1K. Another boost to resale and reward to FSD owners.

    These are two reasons (if you buy-in to this speculation) to order (or upgrade
    to) FSD now. That said, I'm not planning to upgrade from my AP2 any time
    soon. Life's a gamble, isn't it?
     
    • Like x 2
    • Love x 1

Share This Page