Should I be concerned

[Nexeus]

Hello everyone, I'm a a fresh newbie this is my first post. I'm looking at buying a 2014 model s 85 and it has 120,500 miles on it and he says at full charge it says range is 222 miles. Is that normal degradation or should I be concerned?

 

[Cosmacelf]

That's pretty normal I think. My 2013 era S85 pretty quickly dropped to like 246 miles full charge. Be aware that SOME Teslas of that era are reporting complete battery failures, so do research that.

 

[Nexeus]

That's pretty normal I think. My 2013 era S85 pretty quickly dropped to like 246 miles full charge. Be aware that SOME Teslas of that era are reporting complete battery failures, so do research that.

Exactly what I have been here and many other places trying to figure it out haha. Thank you for your input. From what I could tell so far it seemed normal and Carfax reports nothing concerning and there don't seem to be any errors or alerts (at least so far as the seller has told me) for it. But I plan to test drive it and make sure myself when I get there.

Very much appreciated.

 

[ucmndd]

I don’t think you have any concern regarding that level of degradation. That said, I’d have significant concern buying ANY 2012-2014 Model S unless you’re prepared for and can stomach a potential $15-20k bill for a battery failure that could happen at literally any time.

 

[Nexeus]

I have considered that or the drive unit failing. But at the same time I'm just as likely to have something in my combustion car go wrong that I can't afford to pay for and honestly probably more likely because there's so much more that can fail. For instance I had a vehicle radiator suddenly blow causing extreme heat in the engine and warped a cylinder in and older car I had that still had a loan on it. Really sucked to roll that loan on another car.

Granted I'll be getting a loan for this new car and don't have any car loans right now. That part would suck. But doesn't seem like a different risk to me.

 

[ucmndd]

I have considered that or the drive unit failing. But at the same time I'm just as likely to have something in my combustion car go wrong that I can't afford to pay for and honestly probably more likely because there's so much more that can fail. For instance I had a vehicle radiator suddenly blow causing extreme heat in the engine and warped a cylinder in and older car I had that still had a loan on it. Really sucked to roll that loan on another car.

Granted I'll be getting a loan for this new car and don't have any car loans right now. That part would suck. But doesn't seem like a different risk to me.

There’s risk in owning anything mechanical, to be sure. But I don’t think the “it’s all the same” approach is warranted in this case. Early production Model S from 2012-2014 have some significant design issues that make the odds of battery failure much much higher than later models - to the point that the most informed in this space typically regard it as a “when, not if” proposition. There are MUCH more reliable cars to be had at the same price point.

The large rear drive units present in RWD cars also have a significant design flaw that often results in failure. In all, these are not inexpensive cars to own and are only going to get more costly to keep on the road moving forward.

At minimum, I highly recommend you browse the first few pages of this forum section where there are numerous reports of battery failures reported in just the last few weeks/months from this vintage of cars. Search for “bms_029” for an even more thorough accounting of the types of risks you’re considering taking on.

2015+ cars benefit from some fundamental design improvements that thus far seem to make them much more reliable in some key ways. I love my car (late 2016 S) and have had a generally good ownership experience over 170,000 miles, but I’ve gotta be honest, I would not buy a 2012-2014 Model S at pretty much any price. The carrying costs and overall risk are just too great. Especially if you have a loan.

Good luck.

 

[Tam]

Hello everyone, I'm a a fresh newbie this is my first post. I'm looking at buying a 2014 model s 85 and it has 120,500 miles on it and he says at full charge it says range is 222 miles. Is that normal degradation or should I be concerned?

The battery starts to degrade when it's first made. You should be concerned about its range before you buy it. Now that you brought it home, there's not much to do about it.

The original EPA is 265. You lost 43 miles or 12%.

A loss of 12% is way below the threshold of more than 30% loss for the new car warranty coverage.

 

[ucmndd]

The battery starts to degrade when it's first made. You should be concerned about its range before you buy it. Now that you brought it home, there's not much to do about it.

The original EPA is 265. You lost 43 miles or 12%.

A loss of 12% is way below the threshold of more than 30% loss for the new car warranty coverage.

1) OP didn't buy the car yet, they were clear on that.

2) 12% degradation is not at all unusual for this vintage car with north of 100k miles, it's quite normal.

3) A 2014 Model S has no capacity guarantee of any kind for warranty coverage.

 

[NewbyMaybe]

The later in the year 2014 the better. Paying for a replacement battery will not bother me at all. The nightmare of an ordinary vehicle nickel and diming me is thankfully a dimming memory.

 

[AMPd]

I have considered that or the drive unit failing. But at the same time I'm just as likely to have something in my combustion car go wrong that I can't afford to pay for and honestly probably more likely because there's so much more that can fail. For instance I had a vehicle radiator suddenly blow causing extreme heat in the engine and warped a cylinder in and older car I had that still had a loan on it. Really sucked to roll that loan on another car.

Granted I'll be getting a loan for this new car and don't have any car loans right now. That part would suck. But doesn't seem like a different risk to me.

I’m not sure you’re “just as likely” to have something fail in an ICE car that would cost 15-20 grand to repair. Your radiator example is an interesting one, from everything I know about mechanical workings of internal combustion engines, blowing a radiator shouldn’t have caused “extreme heat” unless you kept on driving without any coolant.

Yes ICE cars have more parts, but not many of those parts cost as much as the battery or the drive unit.

My unsolicited 2 cents, save up a bit more cash and get a newer car. Those older models had some weird issue with water building up on the battery from the AC causing issues with the battery.

 

[David_Cary]

I suspect the market at large has not priced in the battery failures accurately on 2012-2014 models. So most will pay too much. I would buy one but at a cost that reflected the battery failure. You will have one (if you are getting a loan) and then you will need $15k to fix (more or less).

You came here for advice and that advice is not to buy. Degradation has little to nothing to do with failures. You can live with 40% degradation (which is fairly rare) but a battery failure means the car is close to salvage value and undriveable.

Buying a 10 year old car on a loan is probably a bad idea in most situations (if not all).

What is the asking price?

 

[NewbyMaybe]

Putting money in an ordinary car is not as smart as putting it in an EV. Gas prices determine much of the value of EV's, $2/gal won't be around for a while and won't last long. 95% of my charging is free.

 

[ResHacker]

I must highly agree with what @ucmndd wrote. Just wouldn't even think about pre-2015 car as there're so many more things which can go wrong + also the overall build quality is generally worse then later cars. 1,5yrs ago when I was in your situation thinking about some older S I've fortunately decided for and 85D with air susp an many other features. Those D (but non P) versions have more reliable small DUs, where's no water inside the engine (it's cooled by oil with oil/water heat exchanger on the surface), so much reduced danger of flooded engine due to water ingress. They also have better designed clima leakage hose so the condensate doesn't leak up on the battery also causing water ingress issue. And many many other caveats on old RWDs, ie badly positioned 12V batt or DC/DC which is directly behind front wheel ... Air susp also allows you for easier eventual upgrade for a 100kWh (or some derivate like new 90kWh pack) pack as it is proven to be much more reliable, then the old 85kWh + much better SuC speeds. This is another thing I'd consider as with old 85kWh pack you never know day and hour.. I generally believe the RWD might be much bore fun for a better buck, but really consider what is prio for you..

 

[NV Ray]

2012 P85 #2446 here.

Lots of great advice in this thread. For me, I got my 2012 last Fall from original owner (original invoice attached) and got the BMS_u029 alert three days after purchase resulting in 5 figure out of warranty pack replacement. Further, I had to replace the PTC heater w/DC/DC converter fuses.

Although I don't predict that early Model S's will be collectors cars, having an early MS was important to me. Yes, a Founders or perhaps a Signature MS will be more desirable by collectors.

I love that I can daily drive a timeless body style, 2013 (for 2012) Motor Trend Car of the Year, retractable sunroof, Free unlimited supercharging and connectivity car. Including the frunk capacity, total cargo capacity/utillity is unparralled for a 4.4 sec 0-60 five seat sedan.

Absent the Roadster, the MS represents, warts and all, the earliest attempt by Tesla to become what Tesla is today.

My other car is a 2017 Prius Prime. The money I'm saving on maintenance on the Toyota is being used for my MS

 

[Nexeus]

The later in the year 2014 the better. Paying for a replacement battery will not bother me at all. The nightmare of an ordinary vehicle nickel and diming me is thankfully a dimming memory.

It's at least September or later model as it has the autopilot computer

 

[gt2690b]

2012 P85 #2446 here.

Lots of great advice in this thread. For me, I got my 2012 last Fall from original owner (original invoice attached) and got the BMS_u029 alert three days after purchase resulting in 5 figure out of warranty pack replacement. Further, I had to replace the PTC heater w/DC/DC converter fuses.

Although I don't predict that early Model S's will be collectors cars, having an early MS was important to me. Yes, a Founders or perhaps a Signature MS will be more desirable by collectors.

I love that I can daily drive a timeless body style, 2013 (for 2012) Motor Trend Car of the Year, retractable sunroof, Free unlimited supercharging and connectivity car. Including the frunk capacity, total cargo capacity/utillity is unparralled for a 4.4 sec 0-60 five seat sedan.

Absent the Roadster, the MS represents, warts and all, the earliest attempt by Tesla to become what Tesla is today.

My other car is a 2017 Prius Prime. The money I'm saving on maintenance on the Toyota is being used for my MS

View attachment 940345View attachment 940346

2012 P85 #3044 here... became a P90 under warranty and the new battery came with another warranty

The drive unit was likely already replaced as the original drive units had steel ball bearings that pitted under high voltage - they switched to ceramic bearings at some point... see if he can give you a copy of all of the service history. Pretty much everything on my 2012 was replaced under warranty (drive unit - HV battery - 6 door handles - 2 air suspensions - etc - etc)... By the time i sold the car it was like brand new - extra bonus you should get free lifetime supercharging oh how i miss that

 

[Rocky_H]

I'm looking at buying a 2014 model s 85 and it has 120,500 miles on it and he says at full charge it says range is 222 miles.

Hmm, a lot of good perspective here. My car is similar to this. It's a March 2014 S85, and it has 100,600 miles on it. I think I seem to have much less degradation on mine than the average. Last I checked, I think I'm close to 250 rated at full--maybe high 240's? That is really good, since 265 was the original.

Early production Model S from 2012-2014 have some significant design issues that make the odds of battery failure much much higher than later models - to the point that the most informed in this space typically regard it as a “when, not if” proposition. There are MUCH more reliable cars to be had at the same price point. [...] 2015+ cars benefit from some fundamental design improvements that thus far seem to make them much more reliable in some key ways.

Yeah, I was advising a friend of mine a couple of years ago who was looking to buy a used Model S, and I advised to look for a 2016 as the oldest point because of these design improvements.

unless you’re prepared for and can stomach a potential $15-20k bill for a battery failure that could happen at literally any time.

I am already planning for this, but for less than $10K by getting a replacement at 057 or Recell.

The large rear drive units present in RWD cars also have a significant design flaw that often results in failure.

I think that's incomplete/inaccurate. The larger motors were in the P versions. The standard S85 I don't think has that. My S85 is considered so low power it didn't even get the "Chill Mode" feature when they deployed that to most of the other models, which I think is kind of funny.

Air susp also allows you for easier eventual upgrade for a 100kWh (or some derivate like new 90kWh pack) pack as it is proven to be much more reliable, then the old 85kWh + much better SuC speeds.

retractable sunroof, Free unlimited supercharging and connectivity car. Including the frunk capacity, total cargo capacity/utillity is unparralled for a 4.4 sec 0-60 five seat sedan.

My car is intentionally kind of a unicorn. I was nervous and sweaty at the horrifying idea of spending more than $30K for a car, and had never had a nice car before, so while other people were spending $150K plus on theirs, I was intentionally not choosing a bunch of the fancy options that would be long term reliability problems:

Cloth seats, not leather.
No panoramic sunroof.
No air suspension.
No expensive high performance P motor.

So I feel pretty good about the eventual long term ownership life of my car, but I do take it as likely that I will have to get a replacement battery sometime in the next several years.

 

[Nexeus]

I must highly agree with what @ucmndd wrote. Just wouldn't even think about pre-2015 car as there're so many more things which can go wrong + also the overall build quality is generally worse then later cars. 1,5yrs ago when I was in your situation thinking about some older S I've fortunately decided for and 85D with air susp an many other features. Those D (but non P) versions have more reliable small DUs, where's no water inside the engine (it's cooled by oil with oil/water heat exchanger on the surface), so much reduced danger of flooded engine due to water ingress. They also have better designed clima leakage hose so the condensate doesn't leak up on the battery also causing water ingress issue. And many many other caveats on old RWDs, ie badly positioned 12V batt or DC/DC which is directly behind front wheel ... Air susp also allows you for easier eventual upgrade for a 100kWh (or some derivate like new 90kWh pack) pack as it is proven to be much more reliable, then the old 85kWh + much better SuC speeds. This is another thing I'd consider as with old 85kWh pack you never know day and hour.. I generally believe the RWD might be much bore fun for a better buck, but really consider what is prio for you..

As this is a late model 2014 with auto pilot it was being manufactured at the same time as the 2015s. Do you think it is a more reliable choice than other 2014s?

 

[ucmndd]

I think that's incomplete/inaccurate. The larger motors were in the P versions. The standard S85 I don't think has that.

RWD P vs non-P cars both use the same large rear drive unit. They both have the internal seal issue that can cause coolant to flood/corrode the inverter electronics.

The inverter itself is different (higher output in the P) but the motors are mechanically identical.

“Small” drive units didn’t even exist until the AWD “D” cars were introduced.

 

[Rocky_H]

Ah. That's the part I had mixed up.