Should I be concerned

[Nexeus]

Hello everyone, I'm a a fresh newbie this is my first post. I'm looking at buying a 2014 model s 85 and it has 120,500 miles on it and he says at full charge it says range is 222 miles. Is that normal degradation or should I be concerned?

 

[Nexeus]

Th

There’s risk in owning anything mechanical, to be sure. But I don’t think the “it’s all the same” approach is warranted in this case. Early production Model S from 2012-2014 have some significant design issues that make the odds of battery failure much much higher than later models - to the point that the most informed in this space typically regard it as a “when, not if” proposition. There are MUCH more reliable cars to be had at the same price point.

The large rear drive units present in RWD cars also have a significant design flaw that often results in failure. In all, these are not inexpensive cars to own and are only going to get more costly to keep on the road moving forward.

At minimum, I highly recommend you browse the first few pages of this forum section where there are numerous reports of battery failures reported in just the last few weeks/months from this vintage of cars. Search for “bms_029” for an even more thorough accounting of the types of risks you’re considering taking on.

2015+ cars benefit from some fundamental design improvements that thus far seem to make them much more reliable in some key ways. I love my car (late 2016 S) and have had a generally good ownership experience over 170,000 miles, but I’ve gotta be honest, I would not buy a 2012-2014 Model S at pretty much any price. The carrying costs and overall risk are just too great. Especially if you have a loan.

Good luck.

The one I'm looking at is equipped with autopilot. So it is at least a very late model 2014 when they started manufacturing the 2015s. Does that change your opinion or I guess the more accurate question here would be do you think that means this one is more reliable than others from 2014 due to using the newer standards?

 

[Nexeus]

2012 P85 #3044 here... became a P90 under warranty and the new battery came with another warranty

The drive unit was likely already replaced as the original drive units had steel ball bearings that pitted under high voltage - they switched to ceramic bearings at some point... see if he can give you a copy of all of the service history. Pretty much everything on my 2012 was replaced under warranty (drive unit - HV battery - 6 door handles - 2 air suspensions - etc - etc)... By the time i sold the car it was like brand new - extra bonus you should get free lifetime supercharging oh how i miss that

Yes it does have free unlimited supercharging. One of the main perks for this one. Plus auto pilot, mcu2 upgrade.

 

[gt2690b]

Yes it does have free unlimited supercharging. One of the main perks for this one. Plus auto pilot, mcu2 upgrade.

personally i see that version as especially desirable but i would still get a copy of all of the service records Tesla can probably pull them if someone gives them a VIN #

make sure it actually navigates - there were early versions that didnt include nav if u didnt have the Tech package (dunno if that was before 2014 or not)

.. youre risking with the battery but as other have pointed out worse case youre out 10k for a new battery with probably a warranty included (still cheaper than gas over the long run)

 

[Nexeus]

personally i see that version as especially desirable but i would still get a copy of all of the service records Tesla can probably pull them if someone gives them a VIN #

make sure it actually navigates - there were early versions that didnt include nav if u didnt have the Tech package (dunno if that was before 2014 or not)

.. youre risking with the battery but as other have pointed out worse case youre out 10k for a new battery with probably a warranty included (still cheaper than gas over the long run)

A list of service would be very nice, I wish tesla would give that info to me with a VIN but they will only give it to the owner. Maybe he'll give me that as you said if I just ask. I'm not too worried about the door handles that I'm fairly certain I can just fix myself. I've seen some videos on it and it's way cheaper to do than having service center do it and it doesn't look too crazy. I'm most worried about battery and Drive unit. He does have a screenshot of the software page and it does have Navigation software version. Do you know if that means it definitely has navigation? I'm inclined to say yes but you never know.

 

[Rocky_H]

The Tech Package was an expensive option, but it was a prerequisite for several other options, so it's pretty clear if it had it. (And really, there was almost no one at all who didn't get the Tech package, although I do know of one person here in Boise who didn't get it.)

Parking sensors in the bumper
Folding side mirrors
Power lift gate
Navigation

I think all these, plus a few other options required the Tech Package. I was briefly considering not getting it, but my wife talked me into it.

 

[maximizese]

The battery starts to degrade when it's first made. You should be concerned about its range before you buy it. Now that you brought it home, there's not much to do about it.

The original EPA is 265. You lost 43 miles or 12%.

A loss of 12% is way below the threshold of more than 30% loss for the new car warranty coverage.

43 miles loss of range is more like 16.22% by my math.

As for the OP, I would not recommend buying a used Tesla unless you're prepared to potentially spend $25K on repairs, be prepared for a frustrating Service Center experience, and accept that the company still operates like a startup and wants a lot of grace/patience from its customers. I bought our 11/13 built S85 used from Tesla and had close $10K of warranty worked covered in less than two years of ownership including the following:

• TPM system
• drive unit
• HVAC drain hose
• 12V battery
• rear window defroster
• HV contactors

Fortunately, the only repair I had since have been minimal but I knew what to expect before I committed to buying. My advice would be to find a more affordable car with a probably lower cost of repair. I'm sure EV repair costs will drop in the next 5-10 years when inventory and core swaps from parties outside of Tesla pop-up. We're already seeing 3rd party battery replacements offering a lower cost alternative to Tesla Service. I can't tell you what the probability of failure is for the car you're looking into, but if I didn't have the extra money laying around and if I didn't feel a sense of pride in keeping a car on the road for as long as reasonably possible, then I would go with a Tesla 3/Y that had a warranty.

The other consideration is what are your needs for an EV: Do you drive short or long distances? Will this be your sole car? How many miles do you drive in a year? etc.

 

[gt2690b]

A list of service would be very nice, I wish tesla would give that info to me with a VIN but they will only give it to the owner. Maybe he'll give me that as you said if I just ask. I'm not too worried about the door handles that I'm fairly certain I can just fix myself. I've seen some videos on it and it's way cheaper to do than having service center do it and it doesn't look too crazy. I'm most worried about battery and Drive unit. He does have a screenshot of the software page and it does have Navigation software version. Do you know if that means it definitely has navigation? I'm inclined to say yes but you never know.

yes i got to where i could fix the door handles myself as well.. what a PITA though they are... i wouldnt buy without the service records .. im 95% sure the drive unit already got replaced but if it hasn't been i wouldnt buy it

 

[ucmndd]

The one I'm looking at is equipped with autopilot. So it is at least a very late model 2014 when they started manufacturing the 2015s. Does that change your opinion or I guess the more accurate question here would be do you think that means this one is more reliable than others from 2014 due to using the newer standards?

Every month seems to matter in 2014 as they were implementing lots of small fixes and improvements as they became available.

So yeah, later is better. How much better is hard to say

 

[Nexeus]

There’s risk in owning anything mechanical, to be sure. But I don’t think the “it’s all the same” approach is warranted in this case. Early production Model S from 2012-2014 have some significant design issues that make the odds of battery failure much much higher than later models - to the point that the most informed in this space typically regard it as a “when, not if” proposition. There are MUCH more reliable cars to be had at the same price point.

The large rear drive units present in RWD cars also have a significant design flaw that often results in failure. In all, these are not inexpensive cars to own and are only going to get more costly to keep on the road moving forward.

At minimum, I highly recommend you browse the first few pages of this forum section where there are numerous reports of battery failures reported in just the last few weeks/months from this vintage of cars. Search for “bms_029” for an even more thorough accounting of the types of risks you’re considering taking on.

2015+ cars benefit from some fundamental design improvements that thus far seem to make them much more reliable in some key ways. I love my car (late 2016 S) and have had a generally good ownership experience over 170,000 miles, but I’ve gotta be honest, I would not buy a 2012-2014 Model S at pretty much any price. The carrying costs and overall risk are just too great. Especially if you have a loan.

Good luck.

I'm trying to gather this data here and in general as well. I'm reluctant to take battery failure reports on this forum as a true indicator of how frequently they do fail. Because it's like looking for how common problems come up with a customer service agent. A customer service agent is typically going to say there were constant problems with whatever it is they were a service provider for. But that's because that's where people call when they have an issue. They aren't getting people calling them because everything is going fine. So even though it's an extremely small percentage of people with issues it seems like a lot to the person answering them. Likewise, I'm trying to consider the overall picture while also taking into consideration the people with problems on this site because they are real problems for sure. But I think most people find this website because they are having a problem other tesla owners may have experienced or just because they are looking to buy one.

So I definitely appreciate all the experience and input here it's given me some really good info and things to look into for sure. And I'm certainly not trying to ignore anyone's cautions.

 

[Tam]

43 miles loss of range is more like 16.22% by my math.

Thanks for the correction. I was in a hurry so by glancing at the number, my brain was more impressed that there are more "2" than "6" and my short memory got switched and erroneously wrote it down as 12 instead of 16.

 

[dwbv]

@Nexeus just keep a couple grand of cash in your back pocket and you'll be fine for the occasional issues here and there (and they will come for sure, it's a "when" and not an "if"). It's true that EVs have less moving parts than an ICE but don't ever forget that those fewer parts in the EV are exponentially more expensive than the many parts in the ICE. As long as you can handle that then you will be fine.

As for history, just ask the owner to bring it up on his phone and save those invoice PDFs to his phone and email them to you or whatnot. Any history beyond the owner is not going to be attainable. Any DIY the owner did or did not do is up to you on taking his word.

Read this: Advice: BMS_w035 - battery coolant heater? Causing other alert codes too.

If you can stomach that and the loss of money+time+lodging+travel+whatever then you'll be absolutely fine. Sounds like you're more after the "experience" than the "owernship" like I am. I say YOLO it and enjoy it knowing full well what you're getting yourself into so when things start heading south, don't complain or whine because it was your decision therefore own it.

 

[EarlyM3Owner]

Hello everyone, I'm a a fresh newbie this is my first post. I'm looking at buying a 2014 model s 85 and it has 120,500 miles on it and he says at full charge it says range is 222 miles. Is that normal degradation or should I be concerned?

Sounds fairly normal i think. The original 85s were rated at 265 miles (depending on how you drive, you would probably actually get around 240-250). Even taking 265 miles into account as the benchmark, you are still retaining around 84% of the battery health. Pretty normal considering its 9 years old and over 120k miles. I wouldn't expect it to drop a lot from this point though. they tend to hover around the 80-85% degradation mark for hundreds of thousands of miles.

 

[Nexeus]

@Nexeus just keep a couple grand of cash in your back pocket and you'll be fine for the occasional issues here and there (and they will come for sure, it's a "when" and not an "if"). It's true that EVs have less moving parts than an ICE but don't ever forget that those fewer parts in the EV are exponentially more expensive than the many parts in the ICE. As long as you can handle that then you will be fine.

As for history, just ask the owner to bring it up on his phone and save those invoice PDFs to his phone and email them to you or whatnot. Any history beyond the owner is not going to be attainable. Any DIY the owner did or did not do is up to you on taking his word.

Read this: Advice: BMS_w035 - battery coolant heater? Causing other alert codes too.

If you can stomach that and the loss of money+time+lodging+travel+whatever then you'll be absolutely fine. Sounds like you're more after the "experience" than the "owernship" like I am. I say YOLO it and enjoy it knowing full well what you're getting yourself into so when things start heading south, don't complain or whine because it was your decision therefore own it.

@Nexeus just keep a couple grand of cash in your back pocket and you'll be fine for the occasional issues here and there (and they will come for sure, it's a "when" and not an "if"). It's true that EVs have less moving parts than an ICE but don't ever forget that those fewer parts in the EV are exponentially more expensive than the many parts in the ICE. As long as you can handle that then you will be fine.

As for history, just ask the owner to bring it up on his phone and save those invoice PDFs to his phone and email them to you or whatnot. Any history beyond the owner is not going to be attainable. Any DIY the owner did or did not do is up to you on taking his word.

Read this: Advice: BMS_w035 - battery coolant heater? Causing other alert codes too.

If you can stomach that and the loss of money+time+lodging+travel+whatever then you'll be absolutely fine. Sounds like you're more after the "experience" than the "owernship" like I am. I say YOLO it and enjoy it knowing full well what you're getting yourself into so when things start heading south, don't complain or whine because it was your decision therefore own it.

Read your thread... OUCH! Is this resolved yet or are you still waiting?

 

[dwbv]

Read your thread... OUCH! Is this resolved yet or are you still waiting?

Oh yea, well over with. The battery heater was replaced and the car's been perfect since. My last post in that thread has links to 2 other threads of mine with the absolution to the ordeal. Check it out if you haven't already. If all that doesn't bother you, then you're ready to test-drive the EV world with the rest of us.

On a side note, EVs are not better than ICE. All you're doing is trading ICE problems for EV problems. The more time I spend with my P85D, the more apparent this becomes.

 

[gt2690b]

Oh yea, well over with. The battery heater was replaced and the car's been perfect since. My last post in that thread has links to 2 other threads of mine with the absolution to the ordeal. Check it out if you haven't already. If all that doesn't bother you, then you're ready to test-drive the EV world with the rest of us.

On a side note, EVs are not better than ICE. All you're doing is trading ICE problems for EV problems. The more time I spend with my P85D, the more apparent this becomes.

I've been driving EVs for over 10 years now and that has not been my experience at all.. ICE cars in the shop orders of magnitude more than my EV not to mention $40k of gas money spent over 200k miles on my ICE

 

[dwbv]

I've been driving EVs for over 10 years now and that has not been my experience at all.. ICE cars in the shop orders of magnitude more than my EV not to mention $40k of gas money spent over 200k miles on my ICE

You're the outlier. Most people don't drive any car for 200k miles whether they buy new or used. An EV is not a better or cheaper option. A well-maintained used ICE that goes 30mpg+ will always be a better financial option than an equivalent EV. The price point of entry into the EV world is too expensive.

If you just want the EV experience then go for it however don't think you're going "better", you're just going sideways. When you break it down to the nitty-gritty, EVs are no better or worse, just different.

 

[ucmndd]

The price point of entry into the EV world is too expensive.

My brother just bought a brand new Chevy Bolt for $28,000. That’s cheap for a new car by any standard in 2023.

After fed/state/local incentives and including tax/title/reg his total costs are going to be about $13,000.

It’s a shame GM killed them. Get one while you can.

 

[gt2690b]

My brother just bought a brand new Chevy Bolt for $28,000. That’s cheap for a new car by any standard in 2023.

After fed/state/local incentives and including tax/title/reg his total costs are going to be about $13,000.

It’s a shame GM killed them. Get one while you can.

I'd like to see that math on this one @dwbv ... even without the rebates a corolla is gonna cost more than a Bolt after 5 years or so

Not to mention show me an equivalent 7 seater SUV that financially comes close to a model Y.. the best option is maybe a highlander or a subaru and while they may cost 15k less initially the costs add up very quickly not to mention the resale value at any point where u want to sell it u'd still come out on top with a Y no matter how you slice it and the longer u drive it the better

 

[NewbyMaybe]

All the biggest companies are building or buying EV's. There must be something about them that makes sense.

 

[Electric700]

I don’t think you have any concern regarding that level of degradation. That said, I’d have significant concern buying ANY 2012-2014 Model S unless you’re prepared for and can stomach a potential $15-20k bill for a battery failure that could happen at literally any time.

If it happens, it could be close to a $5k repair with 057tech.com, recell-ev.com, or other similar main battery repair places. Tesla also offers refurbished main batteries, but the cost usually is higher...close to $10k.