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Should I request Power Optimizers?

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I'm trying to learn about Power Optimizers to see if they would be a good idea to add to my array design or not.

Does anyone have any experience with them and Tesla solar/inverter/powerwalls?

I've heard they're typically only added when there's a good amount of shade on your array, but I'm also seeing that they may add panel level monitoring (which would be really nice to have! ...but does this still work with Tesla inverters?) and the ability to shut down one panel if it has any issues and not affect the rest of the system.

Would it be worth asking Tesla to add them? Or is the negative effect of losing a little power not worth it?
 
I believe you are describing micro inverters (panel level monitoring, ability to have panels work if one goes down), not optimizers. Tesla doesnt do micro inverters (so you wont be able to ask them to add them). I dont know if they still do optimizers or not, or whether it would be beneficial as that is above my technical knowledge.

I like the idea of micro inverters (tesla doesnt do those). I am ambivalent to the idea of optimizers, which I am fairly certain do not provide either of the functions you mentioned.
 
Optimizers are needed if you have shading (some panels exposed while others not). If you are 100% clear, and each panel sees the same sun, you technically don’t need them. If you have mixed exposure one shaded panel can lower the output of the whole string. With optimizers each panel is “optimized”.
 
Solar Edge Optimizers also give panel level monitoring, and the ability to "Lose" a module out of the string due to shading or other reasons and the rest of the string will still perform proportionally as well as the remaining panels. They can even use totally different modules in the same string.
They do this by bucking or boosting the string voltage/amperage to prevent a low voltage module from pulling down the voltage on the rest of the string.

However even with some shading, the loss in production might be minimal, depending on your system design, such that the extra cost of the optimizers is an expense you will never recover with any extra energy harvest. The MPPT circuitry and voltage windows of modern inverters are amazing.

It wasn't too many years ago that even major inverter manufacturers MPPT voltage range was 200v total or less. They might only track MPPT between 300v and 550v so loss of just a few high voltage modules might take out a string, or just push it out of the MPPT rated range. With these older inverters the comparison to an optimizer system looked better for the optimizer system. Those inverters might have needed 200v just to start producing power.

These days, inverters have very low start-up voltages, as low as 60v for the Tesla inverters and they produce MPPT rated power from 60v to 480v and produce power to 550v.
 
I'm trying to learn about Power Optimizers to see if they would be a good idea to add to my array design or not.

Does anyone have any experience with them and Tesla solar/inverter/powerwalls?

I've heard they're typically only added when there's a good amount of shade on your array, but I'm also seeing that they may add panel level monitoring (which would be really nice to have! ...but does this still work with Tesla inverters?) and the ability to shut down one panel if it has any issues and not affect the rest of the system.

Would it be worth asking Tesla to add them? Or is the negative effect of losing a little power not worth it?
Unless you have heavy shade, the Tesla inverter will probably be all that you need. Tesla will not likely install anything else.
 
Ok, thank you so much @Vines ...that makes me feel better...I was hoping I wouldn't need to go through the design phase again. I don't think I understood MPPTs very well before...but it sounds like they have a "window" of operation and as long as you're in that window of voltage, one panel failing wouldn't stop the others from continuing to produce at full capacity...is that right?

I do have one other concern though, related to MPPTs. It seems that they're tying together my east and west facing panels and putting them on the same circuit...am I reading this right? It seems to me like they should be on different circuits so that the east facing panels can turn on early in the morning, and the west facing panels can continue to run late into the evening. I thought the inverter had 4 MPPTs...but it seems like they're only using 2 of them essentially.

I was going to say that seems like a problem, but with my new (hopefully accurate) understanding of MPPTs, maybe that's just fine because the 6 east facing panels would turn on anyway because they're providing at least 60v...and the 6 west facing panels would remain on late into the evening, even if the 6 east facing panels are completely off.

Here's a picture of the three line diagram:
(the 2x8 is south facing, and then there's one 1x6 facing east and the other is facing west)

2022-08-15 14_51_08-Tesla Energy EN7990122 - joshabbe@gmail.com - Gmail.png
 
Solar Edge Optimizers also give panel level monitoring, and the ability to "Lose" a module out of the string due to shading or other reasons and the rest of the string will still perform proportionally as well as the remaining panels. They can even use totally different modules in the same string.
They do this by bucking or boosting the string voltage/amperage to prevent a low voltage module from pulling down the voltage on the rest of the string.

However even with some shading, the loss in production might be minimal, depending on your system design, such that the extra cost of the optimizers is an expense you will never recover with any extra energy harvest. The MPPT circuitry and voltage windows of modern inverters are amazing.

It wasn't too many years ago that even major inverter manufacturers MPPT voltage range was 200v total or less. They might only track MPPT between 300v and 550v so loss of just a few high voltage modules might take out a string, or just push it out of the MPPT rated range. With these older inverters the comparison to an optimizer system looked better for the optimizer system. Those inverters might have needed 200v just to start producing power.

These days, inverters have very low start-up voltages, as low as 60v for the Tesla inverters and they produce MPPT rated power from 60v to 480v and produce power to 550v.
That’s a great point about monitor panels.

But the only thing that has broken on my system is 3 Solar Edge Optimizers and the main Solar Edge inverter. The LG panels have been flawless for 6 years.
 
Ok, thank you so much @Vines ...that makes me feel better...I was hoping I wouldn't need to go through the design phase again. I don't think I understood MPPTs very well before...but it sounds like they have a "window" of operation and as long as you're in that window of voltage, one panel failing wouldn't stop the others from continuing to produce at full capacity...is that right?

I do have one other concern though, related to MPPTs. It seems that they're tying together my east and west facing panels and putting them on the same circuit...am I reading this right? It seems to me like they should be on different circuits so that the east facing panels can turn on early in the morning, and the west facing panels can continue to run late into the evening. I thought the inverter had 4 MPPTs...but it seems like they're only using 2 of them essentially.

I was going to say that seems like a problem, but with my new (hopefully accurate) understanding of MPPTs, maybe that's just fine because the 6 east facing panels would turn on anyway because they're providing at least 60v...and the 6 west facing panels would remain on late into the evening, even if the 6 east facing panels are completely off.

Here's a picture of the three line diagram:
(the 2x8 is south facing, and then there's one 1x6 facing east and the other is facing west)

View attachment 841340
Tesla seems to like wiring the MPPTs like this now a days. It's not optimal and it seems like they are only saving themselves running additional wires/conduit down to the inverter. With the two strings wired in parallel they will always have to have the same voltage across both strings. Generally this isn't much of an issue since the optimal voltage across the string does not vary much with the intensity of the light on the panels. However, with shading things become a bit different. If one string has panels partially or fully shaded and the other string is fully illuminated you will lose x2 the power you normally would with independent strings with the same shading. In the grand scheme of things it probably isn't a whole lot of power loss but would depend on the amount of shading and how uneven it is between the two strings.
 
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Darn…so that will be really bad to have an east facing and west facing array tied together…because one of them or the other will have shade on them for a good part of the day outside of direct noon because they face away from each other :/ The whole point of putting up an east and west array was to get the solar cranking early in the morning and keep it running late into the evening. So this sounds like something worth having them go back to the design team to change huh?

Or, is that something that can be changed at install time? Maybe I could ask the installers to “wire it correctly”…or is that too much of a change from the plans that the installers wouldn’t be allowed to do that? I really want to get the installation scheduled soon.
 
Darn…so that will be really bad to have an east facing and west facing array tied together…because one of them or the other will have shade on them for a good part of the day outside of direct noon because they face away from each other :/ The whole point of putting up an east and west array was to get the solar cranking early in the morning and keep it running late into the evening. So this sounds like something worth having them go back to the design team to change huh?

Or, is that something that can be changed at install time? Maybe I could ask the installers to “wire it correctly”…or is that too much of a change from the plans that the installers wouldn’t be allowed to do that? I really want to get the installation scheduled soon.
Those would usually be separate strings (optimizers or no optimizers).
 
Darn…so that will be really bad to have an east facing and west facing array tied together…because one of them or the other will have shade on them for a good part of the day outside of direct noon because they face away from each other :/ The whole point of putting up an east and west array was to get the solar cranking early in the morning and keep it running late into the evening. So this sounds like something worth having them go back to the design team to change huh?

Or, is that something that can be changed at install time? Maybe I could ask the installers to “wire it correctly”…or is that too much of a change from the plans that the installers wouldn’t be allowed to do that? I really want to get the installation scheduled soon.
Sorry don't have time to fully reply now but the issue is not that bad. What I was referring to is "shade" where one panel in the string is shaded relative to the rest of the panels on the string. The general difference in intensity on the two different strings given their azimuth is not the issue. Doesn't hurt to ask but even if it was no cost the redesign time might delay your project. Unless you have trees or other structures shading your panels significantly I wouldn't worry about it too much.
 
Sorry don't have time to fully reply now but the issue is not that bad. What I was referring to is "shade" where one panel in the string is shaded relative to the rest of the panels on the string. The general difference in intensity on the two different strings given their azimuth is not the issue. Doesn't hurt to ask but even if it was no cost the redesign time might delay your project. Unless you have trees or other structures shading your panels significantly I wouldn't worry about it too much.
But wouldn’t the western panels essentially be “in shade” in the morning, and the eastern facing panels be “in shade” in the evening? Even though the shade is created by the other side of the roof…the panels don’t know where the shade is coming from…just that they’re not getting sun. So if they’re tied together, it seems like one side will always bring the other down unless the sun is high in the sky and shining on both sides at the same time (for just a short part of the day).
 
But wouldn’t the western panels essentially be “in shade” in the morning, and the eastern facing panels be “in shade” in the evening? Even though the shade is created by the other side of the roof…the panels don’t know where the shade is coming from…just that they’re not getting sun. So if they’re tied together, it seems like one side will always bring the other down unless the sun is high in the sky and shining on both sides at the same time (for just a short part of the day).
No it doesn't quite work like that. Here is a somewhat crude explanation. For a single solar cell or panel, the current vs voltage curve looks like the below:

1660672077565.png


The inverter MPPT will try to adjust the voltage across the panel to maximize the power produced (Vmpp) which is represented by the area under the curve in grey. As the amount of sunlight hitting the panel changes, to first order only the height of the curve changes (i.e. the max current).

From now on for illustration simplicity I am going to ignore the knee and tail in the curve and just treat it as a perfect rectangle. If you have a string with 7 panels in series with uniform illumination the voltage of each panel is summed to give you a curve like below where I have squished the x-axis relative to the above graph.
1660673195933.png

The dotted lines just represent the Vmpp of the individual panels and the Vmpp of the string is 7 x Vmpp of a single panel. Now if one of the panels is shaded you have a curve that looks like this:
1660673742001.png

For panels wired in series the current through each panel has to be the same. If you keep the same operating voltage as without shading then the current of every panel is going to be limited by the shaded panel and the total area under the curve (power produced) would be lower than if the MPPT drops the voltage to the new Vmpp of the string. There is a bypass diode that allows the current flow through the shaded panel with no effect on the voltage effectively eliminating that panel from the string. I am ignoring for simplicity that each panel has multiple bypass diodes and essentially acts like several smaller panels in series.

Now if you have two strings wired in parallel the current of the parallel strings sums and the curve looks something like this if both strings are equally illuminated:
1660675264920.png


The power produced by each string is identical as if they were completely independent. Now if you have complete shading on one of the panels in String 2 it now looks like this:
1660675400466.png

The voltage drops on both strings so you not only lose power from the shading on String 2 but an equal amount of power from String 1.

If you now have have two strings that have different amounts of illumination the curve looks like this:
1660675880915.png


Again no issues if there is no shading within an individual string. You can imagine based on the above graphs what will happen if you do get some shading in this case. If there is shading on String 2, one of two things can happen depending on the relative illumination of the two strings. Like above the voltage could drop and you not only lose power due to the shading on String 2, but you also lose even more power from a higher producing panel in String 1. At a certain point the amount of power String 2 is producing gets so low that the Vmpp of the two strings is just equal to the Vmpp of String 1 (i.e. a single panel on String 1 is producing equal or greater power than all of String 2). In that case String 2 will produce almost no power but you get full production from String 1. This would be typically late in the day or early in the morning when String 2 is not producing much anyway.

All that said, it is probably not a huge loss in production unless you have significant shading during peak production times. Certainly it is worth asking Tesla if they would change your design, but I'm guessing that might be a difficult road given Tesla's responsiveness.
 
For what it's worth, I have 50 panels facing south on 5 strings and 2 SunnyBoy inverters. From Fall to Spring, assorted panels are shaded by trees in the morning and/or afternoon. As near as I can tell, shading of one or more panels on a string does *not* knock it out, and all 5 continue to produce.
 
All that said, it is probably not a huge loss in production unless you have significant shading during peak production times. Certainly it is worth asking Tesla if they would change your design, but I'm guessing that might be a difficult road given Tesla's responsiveness.

Wow, thank you so much for the detailed explanation! And the summary :) I really appreciate you taking the time to explain all of that with words and pictures :) I read through it three times and understood it more each time.

I had already submitted a request to Tesla...hopefully it won't slow things down. If they say they can't do it, I feel a lot better about things having read your explanation. If they say they can, then great!
 
Micro inverters and Optimizers double the number of electrical connections 4 vs 2 per panel, increasing “points of failure”.
I think that it is better phrased as "increasing the potential points of failure"...connections aren't a common failure mode after commissioning, I.e. two times a very small number is still a very small number.

Some folks prefer to have an inverter failure affect a few percent of their capacity, rather than 50-100% of their capacity, and thus end up on the microinverters page, other don't mind being down until the inverter is replaced. When we installed solar, central inverters had a ten year warranty, and microinverters a twenty five year warranty. Yes, we have ten times as many microinverters, but twenty five years is much farther along the statistical tail in terms of MTBF, so I do not anticipate many, if any, failures in the warranty period, and if push came to shove, I could buy one easily, and cheaply on the open market.

I think that the microinverters vs central inverters is like talking car brands for some folks. The issue of "better" has many sides.

I would argue that the big picture is that the process of installing and running photovoltaic power systems work pretty well, and most of the major kinks are out of the system, local AHJ complexities, and Tesla's customer service notwithstanding.

All the best,

BG
 
I some unusual shading/damage concerns. I have an existing Solar Edge system with inverters, and live on a golf course with some tree shading issues. Over the years, I've had 4 panel (out of 20) hit, but the net loss of production of the panels is minor (maybe 3% for the whole array). I've noticed that a hit seems to knock out about 12% of the production, making me wonder if it is just taking out one portion of the panel (Using 290w REC Twin panels).

I'm considering adding a second, independent Tesla solar array. This will be getting some significant shading from a nearby tree, and I expect to have similar golf ball damage that will hit panels over the years. Since the panels will not be seen from the street, I don't care about cosmetics, but I am concerned about how the Tesla Inverter will handle the shade and damage panels.
I understand that the current Tesla solar uses string inverters, but does not support optimizers like my Solar Edge installation. I'm wondering how it would respond to one of the panels on the string taking a hit and losing 12-25% of its generation capacity. And if I have a string of 6 panels, one of which is entirely in shade, will I lose the generation capacity of just that panel or will it bring down the whole string?

Thanks for any advice.