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Should Tesla be worried about the Taycan?

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by Bill Price, Aug 12, 2019 at 8:37 AM.

  1. Eno Deb

    Eno Deb Active Member

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    Reportedly Taycan drivers will get free fast charging on the Electrify America network for 3 years after purchase:

    Porsche and Electrify America are poised to give Tesla a run for its money - Roadshow
    Try driving through the LA metro area. There are often lines and I have seen quite a few inoperational supercharger stalls when visiting the area. Not to mention that charging is often ridiculously slow when you have to share a charger with another car.
     
  2. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Active Member

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    Considering Tesla generally has more stalls per location, a vested interest in maintaining the stations promptly, and a more homogenized charging "fleet"...I would think that paints a less than rosey picture of the CCS network.
     
  3. VT_EE

    VT_EE Active Member

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    The Taycan is not a road trip car. Go in with that attitude and you’ll probably be very happy. Assuming you have the cash for it’s outrageous price.
     
  4. Eno Deb

    Eno Deb Active Member

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    How is it any less a road trip car than a Tesla?
     
  5. Eno Deb

    Eno Deb Active Member

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    They also have more cars per location in areas like LA or the Bay Area at this point in time.
    We'll see how things develop. The supercharger network is great, but Tesla has obvious problems keeping up with demand in some areas.
     
  6. ash9.58

    ash9.58 Member

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    https://www.autoevolution.com/news/audi-e-tron-50-is-now-the-entry-level-comes-with-less-power-and-less-range-136449.html

    Range test? just look at any of the reviews will confirm Tesla has the better range and charger ecosystem. look for yourself.

    "Since its market launch earlier this year, the Audi e-tron SUV managed to sell around 5,000 units in Europe, and under 2,000 in the U.S. These figures are painting a not so great picture for the first electric SUV wearing the four-rings logo. Even so – or because of this - the Germans decided to launch a second model in the range."

    "With the introduction of the new entry-level, Audi brings its electric SUV capabilities down to a minimum. The bigger 55 was already behind the Tesla Model X and the Jaguar I-Pace in terms of range, and the new version is even farther."
     
  7. TeeEmCee

    TeeEmCee Member

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    You’re confusing the BS/PC corporate “mission” with the reason so many investors have given them money. Ask your pension fund if they’re OK with Tesla going down in the name of “the cause”.

    It’s a business, bound by the same largely immutable market laws as any other business. Yes, in today’s world it’s expected to have some touchy-feely nonsense stated as your “goal”, but that does not change reality.
     
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  8. Krazaak

    Krazaak Member

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    I think if you're in an area with good CCS coverage, it may not be a bad trip car. You bring up a good point about the price though, it sounds fairly reasonable when you compare it the $130-150k that people paid for a Model S Performance more than a year or two ago, but you can buy one for $100,000 today. You'll have a certain group of enthusiasts that won't care, some that will be turned off by Tesla's current service and growing pains, but if Tesla can stabilize and put some real effort into better QA and service experience, then you'll have the massively cheaper Model 3 Performance and significantly cheaper Model S Performance that look comparable or better on paper to most people.

    Truth told though, I think the Porsche is going to cannibalize from German performance ICE sales more than it does Tesla anything. You'll have a few jump ship from Tesla, but I'd suspect more people who've just not been willing to take the chance on a Tesla have been waiting on a compelling EV from a brand they trust more or that seems more familiar.

    Frankly, I see any EV as an enabler. I didn't really give Tesla much consideration until I bought my Zero Motorcycle and realized that even a 100mi range BEV was sufficient for 90+% of my driving. It may actually convert some that have been on the fence into considering a Model 3 as an additional family car.
     
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  9. Krazaak

    Krazaak Member

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    I agree in a sense, Tesla obviously isn't going to just step back and say 'Great, now that other manufacturers are making EVs, we can fade into the sunset.' The key though is if you believe that the entire consumable automobile market is taking a swing towards electrification, then the total available market for EVs is so far beyond what Tesla can provide that competitors in the same space are almost irrelevant for the next 20+ years. Tesla is far from perfect, but I don't think anyone can convincingly dismiss their technological lead in the space. Sometimes, they're their own worst enemy and they could ultimately bring themselves down, but they have a lead on technology, efficiency and production that isn't going to be easily surpassed by any traditional manufacturer that isn't willing to dive head first into EV production. Porsche isn't trying to put a million Taycans on the road, it seems more like they're dipping their toes in the water enough to stem some of the defections from German performance automobiles to Tesla.
     
  10. ohmman

    ohmman Maximum Plaid Member

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    Ah, @TeeEmCee. Member since 2015, positive on Tesla since never. I don't disagree with some of your complaints, but maybe give it up with the disaster predictions?

    CCS is getting much better in the Western US, no question. The coverage is limited, though, and the number of stalls at each location is paltry. You can look at a map and say "wow, great coverage," but then you see that Tesla has 20 SCs at a nearby location and these stations have 2. Right now that doesn't matter much, but if your Tesla disaster predictions came to fruition and everyone moved to other manufacturers, the bottlenecks would be embarrassing news for all EVs. Also, the route you planned that shows 34 minutes of charging? Compare that with how many minutes of charging it is for a Model S. You might be disappointed.

    I absolutely have no blind loyalty to Tesla. I've watched service quality deteriorate rapidly since I got my Model S. It was unbelievably solid until they released the X, and things started going off the rails. A friend has had an embarrassing (to Tesla) delivery and service experience with his Model 3 that makes me sad for Tesla. They have some work to do on build quality, communications, and other aspects of their business. But I think that your statement above is a bit over the top.
     
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  11. Uncle Paul

    Uncle Paul Active Member

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    Good point. Most of the Premium German manufacturers have been bleeding market share to Tesla.
     
  12. Uncle Paul

    Uncle Paul Active Member

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    G/F has a BMW i3. Her charging experience has been horrible compared to my Tesla. Broken chargers, stalls already filled, long charging times, chargers shut off before full charge, and chargers located in undesirable locations where she does not feel safe. Needs to pick a nozzle, plug it in, wait for it to communicate with the car and then tap her RFID (that is pretty finicky) to start the billing process. She cannot control her charge to only partially charge. It just runs until it decides to shut off. Sometimes full, but mostly about 80%. She often returns to her car and finds it only 80% charged when she wanted a full charge. Pain in the ass.

    Tesla is true plug and play. Insert the nozzle and walk away until you get a notification on your phone that charging is almost complete and it is time to return to your car.
     
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  13. TeeEmCee

    TeeEmCee Member

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    I would not be ranting here, while avoiding work, if Tesla were not such an interesting and convincing disruptor. My eTron would not exist if it weren't for the Model S and neither would the Taycan, iPace, EQC etc. Tesla is the only car company that has been REDUCING prices in recent memory. Of all the cars I've been interested in over the years, I don't recall many instances when I saw one with a lower street price than the year before (significant economic swings notwithstanding).

    As far as the battery is concerned, the state of the art of everyone else is on par with or barely better than Tesla as of 2012. But it's just batteries, off the shelf cells. Yes, it takes some effort to develop good pack designs but it's not something that Tesla has a monopoly on. Neither are efficient motors or any other components. For its diminutive stature, Tesla has had tremendous accomplishments that have finally dragged the entire industry, kicking and screaming, to the EV battle. However, as you said, Tesla are their worst enemy and, in my opinion, the Tesla-can-do-no-wrong crowd here (and elsewhere) are rather dangerous enablers. Unless we see a sincere, dedicated and, most importantly, thorough reassesment of their position and strategy, I think it will all end horribly wrong for Tesla (and for us fanboys, by extension). What I'm saying is, the big, capable, methodical and flush-with-mega-cash boys are now here, and they mean business this time.
     
  14. TeeEmCee

    TeeEmCee Member

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    #94 TeeEmCee, Aug 12, 2019 at 8:39 PM
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2019 at 8:45 PM
    They have countries the size of a Texas county in Europe. The average car there has a pitiful engine and the levels of power we're accustomed to in the US are regarded as bourgeois and taxed to death by their all-your-stuff-is-belong-to-us governments (we don't need to argue this, I'm a EU citizen). I ran the Audi configurator to see what I'd pay for my car in Germany and it came to some EUR 125K, which is insane vs what I paid for it here. It's absolutely normal and entirely expected that they launch another model, slotted below the 55.


    I do that every single day, with my own eyes. Here's an example, if I may:

    In my 7-month Tesla ownership experience, not once have I reached the rated range, on any one trip, with any one Tesla I drove (aside from driving my own car to and from the service center, I spent a lot of time in all kinds of smelly loaners).

    This below is from an hour ago, a 12-mile store run with a mix of local roads, traffic lights, roundabouts, freeway and all that. 93F, mostly low traffic, dry roads.

    Tesla rate their range at 100%-full battery; Audi in comparison reserve a rather large buffer (83.5-ish usable out of 95 kWh). If we compare apples-to-apples and assume that I used the full 95kWh, my consumption on this trip would correspond to a range of 95x5=285 miles. I think that's about the same as a pre-Raven Model X 100D, no?

    With just the usable 83.5 kWh (this number is Bjorn's estimate), the range corresponding to this trip comes to 250 miles. That is perfectly livable, especially since one can charge the car at a constant 150 kW, up to 80%, as opposed to some 60 kW when sharing a supercharger.

    Screen Shot 2019-08-12 at 10.07.32 PM.png
     
  15. VQTRVA

    VQTRVA Member

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    Cause Taycan hasn't made any of note.
     
  16. TeeEmCee

    TeeEmCee Member

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    I think you're misreading both my interest and intentions.

    Now, should you want to enjoy an echo chamber of "everything is great" kumbaya here, then feel free to send my posts to where you've sent other such "incorrect" opnions on previous occasions. If you'd rather have a respectful dialog, where such "dissenting" opinions are at least heard, if not valued, then give it up with the "give it up" suggestions.

    Thank you!
     
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  17. S4WRXTTCS

    S4WRXTTCS Active Member

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    My belief is the Porsche Taycan will actually benefit Tesla in the North American market.

    Tesla doesn't have the resources to build every kind of EV that one would want. We can certainly see this with the Model S not getting much of a refresh aside from the much needed adaptive suspension.

    The Taycan doesn't actually compete that much with the S if someone looks at it purely from a size perspective. The Taycan targets a customer who wants a high end performance sedan that isn't the size of a spaceship. Someone who might need 4 seats, but who is really looking for a drivers car that is both luxurious and has a lot of performance.

    Someone who likely desires having a car that everyone else isn't driving. In some ways the 3, and S are too popular. So the Taycan gives someone an option of something that's going to relative rare due to its price.

    The high price of the Taycan will likely lead to a lot of perspective buyers actually choosing the 3 instead.

    Having a successful Taycan benefits Tesla as it brings more, and more people to looking at EV's. People who may have not looked when the only real option was Tesla.

    It's also extremely important for the Taycan to be successful to continue the CCS rollout.

    The only place giving Tesla a headache is in Germany. A place where the size of the S doesn't really benefit it, and where Taycan will likely really shine.

    But, it's not like it's really going to matter much because Tesla is mostly focused on vehicles that will sell well in the North American market. Like the Y, and the pickup.
     
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  18. ohmman

    ohmman Maximum Plaid Member

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    I'd enjoy seeing posts that I moved due to the nature of the opinion and not the rules of the site. Please do link to those so I can perform some self-assessment if necessary.
     
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  19. S4WRXTTCS

    S4WRXTTCS Active Member

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    When sharing a supercharger it's not typically halved. The person who arrived first gets priority, and so they'll charge well beyond 60KW even if someone plugs into the shared slot right after.

    Now that's not typically what happens. What typically happens is Person A (who arrived first) is well into the charge taper well before person B ever arrived.

    Especially now that the charge rate is above 150KW (at least for a Model 3). There are also things like Urban superchargers that are not shared that simply do 75KW. There is also no sharing with L3 Superchargers.

    When it comes to charging time I consider the E-Tron, and the Model 3/S/X pretty much the same. Where they are all capable of quickly recharging. That's why I tend to recommend an E-Tron if someone is willing to pay more to get more luxury.
     
  20. S4WRXTTCS

    S4WRXTTCS Active Member

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    That's why VW/Audi/Porsche decided to duplicate Tesla's approach.

    In fact they plan on even adopting automatic payment as well like what Tesla does.

    With a Porsche Taycan I expect to plug in, and charge at an Electrify America stop just like I would with my Tesla at a Supercharger network.

    I do have concerns about the limited number of stalls. Not sure it's going to scale well, but we'll see.

    Not that I'm getting a Taycan. I decided to stick around with Tesla until the Rivian comes out.
     

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