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Should Tesla be worried about the Taycan?

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by Bill Price, Aug 12, 2019 at 8:37 AM.

  1. TeeEmCee

    TeeEmCee Member

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    You're probably correct. Unless there will be some updates, I doubt that many would choose a Model S over the Taycan, for the same money. That may highlight the fact that a Model 3, for roughly half the price, may be a decent compromise.

    On the other hand, if the Taycan has good performance (which it will most certainly will) and it truly starts at the same-ish price as the Panamera, then it may look like a decent "value" among the other Porsches. Even a freakin' base 718 is $70K by the time you add a decent-sounding radio, electric seats and automatic AC. A Taycan with a $7.5K credit, 3 years of free charging and hopefully lower maintenance costs, will not be that far off.

    By the way, I just read this (forgot where) that Porsche revised the given 0-60 for the Taycan to "under 3.0 seconds". I'm guessing that's for the 4S version they're launching first.
     
  2. Krazaak

    Krazaak Member

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    Except it's not that easy or Audi, Jag, etc would have come out with more efficient or more powerful Tesla killers. Instead they came out with what I believe are compelling EVs, but they're not some monumental leap. It's almost like they're more afraid of cannibalizing their own ICE sales than they are with actually taking a chunk out of Tesla. They'll get a few of course, I think Tesla has a dominating lead in the EV market, but I'm more than aware of their faults when it comes to service and delivery. I don't however see the glaring systemic build quality issues that people complain of in my 2016 X or 2018 3, when compared to the numerous other cars I've owned. I also don't have the seemingly rosy memories of my old BMW and Mercedes dealers that some seem to have.

    I don't think the traditional ICE manufacturers mean business. They've got too much to lose from their own ICE sales to put forth a Tesla killer. They're trying to stem the bleeding from their own customers without admitting that the rest of their lineup are dinosaurs. Meanwhile, Tesla is struggling in certain areas, but I'm not entirely convinced that it isn't a strategic decision. They're constantly overextending themselves and it may be that some horrible customer service experiences are a necessary side effect of them staying liquid enough to get the new gigafactory producing and stable profits. They'll lose some customers, but it's easier to build your service organization back up when you've already done it once. Maybe they'll reach for the next golden ring and never maintain stability. In either case, if Tesla ever dies, I'm pretty sure it'll be Tesla holding the gun.
     
  3. JohnSnowNW

    JohnSnowNW Active Member

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    Both Tesla and Audi rate their vehicles on the same driving scale. That's why it's unnecessary to take the word of strangers on the internet to make informed decisions about the capabilities of each vehicle.

    The fact is a 90D is rated to go farther than the e-Tron under the same conditions. Stating that your experience is different, and then using that to try to make an objective comment comparing the two...is nonsense.

    Glad you like your e-Tron, I do wish it was a more capable BEV.
     
  4. emmz0r

    emmz0r Member

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    What's the deal with covering up the car with patterns and stickers and making it look very ugly?
     
  5. tomas

    tomas Only partially psycho

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    not sure to what you are referring. If you mean the taycan sightings, that is typical auto manufacturer "mule disguises" meant to deceive automotive press regarding new car design until they are ready to publish. I've always thought it was silly. Putting it out there in all its glory creates a buzz, and you'll find out early if you have a hit or a dud.
     
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  6. darxsys

    darxsys Member

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    I think people are over complicating or just wishing for Tesla to have a big advantage somewhere, but let's have a discussion on this. I really have no stake in either companies so I am trying to understand what's the actual blocker in infrastructure, since everyone is talking about it here. This is how I think about it:

    1) Money buys permits, it buys partnerships and it buys equipment for chargers. Are you trying to say that some mall, dealership, Walmart, random kiosk won't let VW build a charger on its lot in exchange for money AND future customers who would be charging there? That sounds ridiculous to me. Some cities will be slower to give permits, some will be faster, but permits WILL happen. Heck, if they get Walmart onboard, that's already who knows how many locations.

    2) Like someone in the thread mentioned, Elon has stated he would give other companies access to the SC network if they pay their share. It sounds like people on this thread know something Elon doesn't, then?

    3) Does VW REALLY need to build chargers at absolutely every location where Tesla has one in order to succeed initially? Do they really need 1400 chargers in order to make their cars worth buying? I highly doubt it, especially because their initial customers will likely be located along the both coasts, and nowhere else. So as long as they have decent infra there, they will be fine for the first batch of cars (first few years). Let's face it, how many people will/want to do a cross country trip in their car, and how often? Is that really that big of a selling point for the superchargers? I am never planning to do Seattle - Boston by car. Ever. As long as there is charging along the coast, from Vancouver to San Diego, it's going to be fine for most initial customers.

    4) Let's not even talk about Europe where distances are much smaller and other ways of transportation are a) MUCH better and b) MUCH more utilized than in the US. If I lived in Zurich, why in the world wouldn't I take a nice, fast and convenient train to Bern instead of driving? Or take a $80 plane to Barcelona versus driving for 2 days. This is something that completely changes the argument in Europe where, I feel, the charging infrastructure far away from home matters much less than in the States. Let's add as an additional point the 240V outlets that are standard in Europe and every house has them. So if VW/Porsche is initially mostly aiming at Europe, why would they even care about building much of this infrastructure?

    5) They still haven't sold that many cars so this panic with charging seems a bit out of place. How many superchargers did Tesla have when they sold their first 5000 cars? Once they ramp up production, I fully expect them to ramp up charger construction. Otherwise they would be pretty stupid because it WILL affect sales and WILL be a valid argument for Tesla after they sell 20k Taycans. It isn't right now.

    Really, I am still convinced the only big advantage Tesla has over others is range and amazing battery engineering. I really don't understand why and how Porsche and Audi can't make a decent battery with good efficiency, but that will be their downfall until they do. Meanwhile Tesla is marching forward and probably etching closer to a 400 mile range car. So really, Porsche, nice and pathetic try. Sorry Audi, but build quality can't make up for range and efficiency.

    Also, this stuff with no regen sounds pretty stupid to me, too. These are the only deal breakers to me.
     
  7. trevize1138

    trevize1138 Member

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    If the Taycan has sales numbers rivaling Tesla that's not bad news for Tesla.

    It's bad news for the future of ICEs.
     
  8. VT_EE

    VT_EE Active Member

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    The Model S and Taycan are not comparable products. The S is much larger and the range will most likely be significantly higher (assuming media projections are accurate). Comparing the two is like comparing a BMW 7-series to an Audi S4. Different vehicles for different purposes.
     
  9. Struja

    Struja "Fanboy"

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    I don’t think the argument is that it can’t be done, I think the argument is that it can’t be done quickly. Tesla’s SC network was not built overnight and you correctly point out that there wasn’t that many SC’s when they sold there first 5000 cars. Tesla built their first SC in 2012. That gives them almost an 8 year lead. Can others catch up? I am sure they can and will over time, I just don’t see it happening any time soon.

    As to your first point, I think you are ignoring the fact that you have to find suitable locations (ideally near highways), get your environmental approvals (at least here in Canada), zoning approvals, building permits, and then you have to build. Can it be done? Sure, but this is a question of years, not a single year.

    All the while, you have a prospective buyer eyeing a Tesla vs. any other EV and the SC network (along with range) just sets Tesla apart. It might be true that “if you build it, they will come” but with Tesla, “it’s already built and they are already coming”.
     
  10. Eno Deb

    Eno Deb Active Member

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    People here act as if the others hadn't even started yet. But Electrify America alone will have a little under 500 locations with about 2000 dispensers in the US by the end of the year, plenty for however many Taycans will be sold in the next few years. In Europe the same is happening with Ionity, and they also have a number of independent networks with CCS support. I don't think there will be any problem scaling up the charger networks with the number of cars on the road.
     
  11. VT_EE

    VT_EE Active Member

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    Europe is far ahead. Government policies in the US don’t exactly encourage the deployment of CCS compared to those across the ocean.
     
  12. Eno Deb

    Eno Deb Active Member

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    De facto it's not that different in the US. Practically every non-Tesla fast charger built includes CCS, and all non-Tesla BEVs sold now or coming to the market in the next few years with the exception of the Leaf are CCS.
     
  13. Struja

    Struja "Fanboy"

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    This almost sounds like the “coming soon” portion of the Tesla Supercharger map.

    I just did a search of Electrify Amierca because I am not familiar with them and it looked like my drive from Toronto to Long Island last week would have about 6 Chademo Chargers en route (not 6 locations, 6 chargers). Not really comparable in any meaningful way.
     
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  14. Eno Deb

    Eno Deb Active Member

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    #114 Eno Deb, Aug 13, 2019 at 4:59 PM
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019 at 5:07 PM
    Which would be good enough, since the Taycan is also "coming soon". ;)
    They primarily focus on CCS. Their typical locations have one CCS/Chademo combo charger, plus 3 or more CCS only chargers. Chademo is a dying standard in the US.

    Here's a map of their currently operational CCS chargers (from Plugshare.com). Basically looks like the Tesla network a few years ago. Given that they only started last year, it doesn't look bad to me.

    untitled.jpg
     
  15. Struja

    Struja "Fanboy"

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    @Eno Deb - it’s not a bad map and I had wrongly assumed that you were referring to the Chademo chargers not the CCS.

    It’s not quite Tesla but it isn’t bad either, the only problem is that if the aligned with one car company (VW, Porsche, GM etc...) where does it leave the rest? Also if Electrify America plans to be the alternative for all other EV’s combined, then they have more work ahead than Tesla had in 2012.
     
  16. tccartier

    tccartier Member

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  17. Eno Deb

    Eno Deb Active Member

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    CCS is an open standard. Any car with CCS (which is pretty much every significant BEV except Teslas and Leafs) can use them. Hopefully Tesla will release a CCS adapter (as they have done in Europe), since that would allow us to use both superchargers and the growing CCS network.
    The advantage of open standards over proprietary systems such as the superchargers is that anyone can deploy them. EVgo, Chargepoint and a few other companies are also deploying CCS chargers. Hopefully we'll eventually have a vibrant industry of competing EV charging providers. If EVs are as successful as we hope and truly reach the mass market, I don't think a single company network will be able to achieve the required scale. Also, a monopoly wouldn't be good for the market in the long run.
     
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  18. tccartier

    tccartier Member

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  19. VT_EE

    VT_EE Active Member

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    OMG. Those owners must be really upset because the value of their vehicle has been depreciated so much by these price cuts! I’m sure there will be a class action lawsuit against Jaguar because of this. :D
     
  20. Krazaak

    Krazaak Member

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    Yeah, that was posted to the Facebook Model 3 group I follow. It's a good one to save for the next Tesla price decrease. I wonder if Jaguar owners are picketing the dealership demanding refund checks.
     

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