Should Tesla break out-of-warranty cars with software updates?

[t3sl4drvr]

Intentionally bricking all out-of-warranty cars at the same time would obviously lead to a PR catastrophe and expensive lawsuits. This will never happen.

But if Tesla breaks just some cars in somewhat minor ways, would not this lead to added service revenue (resolving issues) and car sales (for people to treating issues as "normal wear")? Even factoring in the damage to their reputation, could the financial net outcome be positive?

How much Tesla could/should break out-of-warranty cars and still come out with a (financially) positive net outcome?

What if breaking is not intentional, but due to lacking quality control for software updates in old cars with HW configuration Tesla does not use in new cars any more? Would this then be acceptable? Could it still lead to a (financially) positive net outcome?

Where do you think we are today:

• Have there been intentional breaking of functionality in out-of-warranty cars?
• Is some of the breaking of functionality due to negligence in testing for out-of-date HW configurations?
• If so, is the negligence intentional due to financially positive incentives?

How should out-of-warranty Tesla owners think about all this?

 

[Big Earl]

Interesting conspiracy theory. My car has been out of warranty for quite some time and Tesla has never done anything nefarious via software updates. The car continues to perform *better* than when we bought it.

 

[t3sl4drvr]

My car has been out of warranty for quite some time and Tesla has never done anything nefarious via software updates.

Good for you.

My car does way less than 2 years ago due to Tesla updates:

• No more Navigate on Autopilot
• Dashcam recordings are partially broken
• Smart Summon does not work any more
• UI and navigation are way slower than when I purchased the car (yes, I do have a renewed eMMC)
• Instrument cluster have started to crash quite often while driving (goes black and then reboots)

Just for the record, I do not believe these to be intentional. But I am convinced that Tesla is not putting sufficient focus in quality assurance when making changes and due to that they end up breaking features in old cars.

 

[LoudMusic]

I think they should stop updating them.

Other tech companies have been accused of this behavior in the past and it doesn't go well for them. Apple is probably the most prominent.

 

[EVRider-FL]

Which car do you have? I assume you have MCU1, which is why the UI is slow. The only way to fix that is to pay for an upgrade to MCU2. That will probably help with the dashcam issues too.

Please elaborate on how Navigate on Autopilot and Smart Summon are not working any more.

 

[Transformer]

A service center loaned me an older Model S to continue my road trip while awaiting parts. When it displayed an alert to replace the key fob battery at a remote beach without cell coverage, the car couldn't display the owner's manual. The key fob was my only way to open the car so I didn't want to wait to find out how much battery life might be left.

They later explained it was due to a known webkit software compatibility problem.

 

[t3sl4drvr]

Which car do you have? I assume you have MCU1, which is why the UI is slow. The only way to fix that is to pay for an upgrade to MCU2. That will probably help with the dashcam issues too.

Please elaborate on how Navigate on Autopilot and Smart Summon are not working any more.

Model S 2017

MCU1 with renewed eMMC

I would be very happy if MCU would perform the way it did when I purchased the car. Software updates have crippled the performance: Map is moving super slow (sometimes not visible at all while driving), browser/manual has not worked for ages, voice commands have not worked for ages, ...

Dashcam issues are due to software not handling FSD computer (HW3) + MCU1 combination. This was confirmed by Tesla technicians. Several people on these forms have reported that MCU2 upgrade would fix the issue.

Due to Dashcam issue surfacing while car was still under warranty, Tesla should have fixed it. While they said "their engineering will be looking into it" there is no timeline and they have refused the fix it with MCU2 upgrade (on their dime). To resolve the issue, Tesla service center accepted return for FSD feature and promised a full refund for it. That should also fix the issues. Unfortunately Tesla has not followed through with the agreement.

Car reports on every drive that "some autopilot features are disabled and may be restored on the next drive". This has been ongoing since Tesla started analyzing Dashcam (7 months).

In Smart Summon screen on Tesla app, "Go to Target" button is grayed out and says "Error reading camera data". Forwards and Backwards buttons work.

 

[t3sl4drvr]

I think they should stop updating them.

Other tech companies have been accused of this behavior in the past and it doesn't go well for them. Apple is probably the most prominent.

Better alternative IMO:

• Invest in properly testing releases
• Allow restoring/installing old software versions (and collect feedback on why people choose to downgrade to an old version)

These DO cost in terms of engineering resources. I believe the positive impact to Tesla reputation + saved legal costs should be worth it.

 

[LoudMusic]

Better alternative IMO:

• Invest in properly testing releases
• Allow restoring/installing old software versions (and collect feedback on why people choose to downgrade to an old version)

These DO cost in terms of engineering resources. I believe the positive impact to Tesla reputation + saved legal costs should worth it.

Newer features will never run as well on older hardware as they do on newer hardware.

 

[Tam]

...Interesting conspiracy theory...

Most components are projected for "mean time to failure". So the goal is to have components last at least during the warranty period. It's not a conspiracy but it's based on scientific fact.

For example with the older Tesla Model S MCU failure, Tesla said it's not a defect because the testing shows that its eMMC can only last 3,000 PE Program-Erase cycles or about 5 to 6 years which is well after the warranty period.

Tesla: Recalled touchscreens were meant to only last 5-6 years

Tesla told the NHTSA that recalled touchscreens in the Model S and Model X electric cars were only expected to last five to six years—much less than the average lifespan of cars on United States roads today.

www.motorauthority.com

 

[t3sl4drvr]

On the projected mean time to failure:
“Any idiot can build a bridge that stands, but it takes an engineer to build a bridge that barely stands.”

BTW, Tesla has amazing engineers...

 

[TW14 9LF]

I think they should stop updating them.

Other tech companies have been accused of this behavior in the past and it doesn't go well for them. Apple is probably the most prominent.

And then, consumers scream "why isn't <<Company XYZ>> willing to keep supporting my old product? It's all a conspiracy to get me to buy a new one!!!" Substitute Google Pixel phones in here.......Apple is guilty of this as well.

Can't win either way.

Keith

 

[t3sl4drvr]

Apple is guilty of this as well

Very happy how long Apple products I have purchased have lasted and how well Apple has supported through software updates through the years. Far exceeding my expectations. Thus have been happy to continue paying premium prices...

I think most would expect a $100,000 car to have a longer planned lifespan than a $1,000 iPhone. Both products should have comparable lifespans to other products in their respective categories.

 

[dgatwood]

Newer features will never run as well on older hardware as they do on newer hardware.

My iPhone 6s is 6.5 years old. It started out running iOS 9. It is now running iOS 15, and it is approximately as usable as it was when I first got it. By contrast, my 2017 Model X arrived in my hands the day before I left for Christmas, so is just over four years old, was reasonably usable when I got it, and is a total dog now.

Yes, there are features in new versions of iOS that my iPhone 6s doesn't support, none of which I care about. But the base functionality hasn't degraded massively. When the base functionality degrades massively as it has on Tesla's MCU1, it means that either A. the software team doesn't know how to write unit tests, B. they released features that they shouldn't have released on hardware that couldn't really handle it, C. the hardware was garbage to begin with, or some combination of the above.

My guess would be that it is mostly B and C. MCU1 is basically the same CPU you'd find in 2011-era Android tablets, but driving a 2.3 megapixel display instead of a 1 megapixel display. Tegra 2 was grossly underpowered for what they were doing with it even when the hardware was first released in 2012, and it has just gotten worse since then.

To fix this:

• Tesla should spend a few hundred hours finding ways to make sure that the MCU is almost perfectly idle unless the user is interacting with it or it is playing media content.
• Tesla should turn off vector maps for MCU1. I'm sure they switched to vector maps in an effort to reduce flash wear, but the Cortex A9 CPU (from 2007) just can't handle vector maps. (The link shows that even CPUs built four or five years after that perform better with raster maps.)
• Tesla should cache map tiles much more aggressively if at all possible.
• Tesla's dashcam feature, sentry feature, etc. should be handled entirely in the AP computer. The MCU shouldn't see a single byte until the AP computer or user triggers writing data to disk, at which point it should pull the data from the tail end of the AP computer's ring buffer and start compressing and writing.

There's probably way more that should be done, but these are the obvious problems from an outsider's perspective. And most of those optimizations (with the exception of switching to raster maps, which is probably a one-line code change) would benefit MCU2 as well.

 

[EVRider-FL]

Model S 2017

MCU1 with renewed eMMC

I would be very happy if MCU would perform the way it did when I purchased the car. Software updates have crippled the performance: Map is moving super slow (sometimes not visible at all while driving), browser/manual has not worked for ages, voice commands have not worked for ages, ...

Dashcam issues are due to software not handling FSD computer (HW3) + MCU1 combination. This was confirmed by Tesla technicians. Several people on these forms have reported that MCU2 upgrade would fix the issue.

Due to Dashcam issue surfacing while car was still under warranty, Tesla should have fixed it. While they said "their engineering will be looking into it" there is no timeline and they have refused the fix it with MCU2 upgrade (on their dime). To resolve the issue, Tesla service center accepted return for FSD feature and promised a full refund for it. That should also fix the issues. Unfortunately Tesla has not followed through with the agreement.

Car reports on every drive that "some autopilot features are disabled and may be restored on the next drive". This has been ongoing since Tesla started analyzing Dashcam (7 months).

In Smart Summon screen on Tesla app, "Go to Target" button is grayed out and says "Error reading camera data". Forwards and Backwards buttons work.

Sounds like your camera issues were caused by the HW3 upgrade, not software updates. There’s something wrong with your cameras, and service should fix it at no cost to you. How long a go did you upgrade to HW3?

Slow MCU1 performance doesn’t entitle you to a free MCU2 upgrade. Just as with home computers, old technology can’t keep up with new software. At least there’s an upgrade path.

 

[dgatwood]

Sounds like your camera issues were caused by the HW3 upgrade, not software updates. There’s something wrong with your cameras, and service should fix it at no cost to you. How long a go did you upgrade to HW3?

All HW3-upgraded MCU1 systems behave in this way. I think that HW3 runs the cameras at a higher bit depth, which results in increased load on the MCU when doing dashcam stuff.

Slow MCU1 performance doesn’t entitle you to a free MCU2 upgrade. Just as with home computers, old technology can’t keep up with new software. At least there’s an upgrade path.

When we purchased FSD, it was with the understanding that any hardware upgrades required for providing FSD functionality would be free. The HW3 upgrade was one such required hardware upgrade. Its installation made the MCU unusable. Explain why you think that the original poster isn't entitled to an MCU1 upgrade? MCU2 clearly appears to be a requirement for FSD.

 

[t3sl4drvr]

Sounds like your camera issues were caused by the HW3 upgrade, not software updates.

Tesla did acknowledge that there is a known issue for HW3 and MCU1 not working together and thus breaking Dashcam. Furthermore, they told that "engineering team is looking for a software fix".

While this is not a regression delivered with a software update, it is a software issue: Their software has not been tested with old HW (MCU1) and thus is buggy.

Also, HW3 upgrade is not optional - it is required to receive an already purchased feature (FSD)

There’s something wrong with your cameras, and service should fix it at no cost to you.

Yes they should. They have not.

Slow MCU1 performance doesn’t entitle you to a free MCU2 upgrade. Just as with home computers, old technology can’t keep up with new software. At least there’s an upgrade path.

Software updates are pretty much forced: They contain important safety fixes and are required to receive a feature (FSD) that is already paid for. Thus customer is not given a choice between "installing new slower software with new features" and "sticking to a working software version".

This is ok and pretty much the same situation as with any other operating system updates that are practically forced due to security fixes eventually only being released for the latest OS versions.

Critical difference is that Tesla is has been decreasing the usability of the car by making new software slower on MCU1 without giving car owner a choice. This is not ok: You could go any buy a car from any other car manufacturer and expect it to continue working for 20 years (assuming you replace parts that wear down). While the cassette player in your 1980 Porsche does not magically start streaming Spotify, it continues to play cassettes. This is the expectation set for a product in this category and Tesla has not guided customers otherwise.

 

[t3sl4drvr]

MCU2 clearly appears to be a requirement for FSD.

Here is an amazingly confusing explanation by Sunnyvale Service Center manager named Paul about the issue:

[Customer] I brought it in for fixing the dashcam and what I heard from your rep is that it is something that you cannot fix yet.

[Paul] Yes, because engineering team is diagnosing that. That is the part I know about that one. So the engineering team. Jared is probably one of the most knowledgeable technicians. Did he speak with you already?

[Customer] Yes, he spoke. So... One of the technicians spoke.

[Paul] Yes, that was Jared. So, he escalated that to the engineering team. The engineering team is now doing their research to see what kind of fixes there are. When the engineering team gets back to us, we get back to the customer.

[Customer] Yeah, he already confirmed on Monday [when I brought the car for service], that it can be fixed by installing MCU2.

[Paul] So, the MCU2 is a possibility. They do not guarantee that it will fix it. It is a possibility. I am not sure what is the cost of MCU2, but not a guarantee that's gonna fix the dashcam.

[Customer] I checked with a couple of customers who had exact same issue, who paid for MCU2 and they...

[Paul] They paid for MCU2 and it fixed it?

[Customer] Yeah.

[Paul] Ok. I do not feel comfortable selling you MCU2 if I do not 100% know that that's gonna fix it. So would probably talk to the engineering team. Now if the customer wants to still upgrade to MCU2...

[Customer] No, I do not want to pay for it. The key thing is that I already paid for Full Self-Drive.

[Paul] Yes. The FSD.

[Customer] And that is actually the reason for this problem. So the FSD broke the...

[Paul] So when you get the FSD, it does work on the MCU1. But if you want to upgrade [to MCU2], there is a charge.

[Customer] I mean.. It does not work with MCU1 today.

[Paul] Ok. Right. And that will be a future thing. And this is why people with FSD, is a beta program.

[Customer] Exactly. I understand.

[Paul] It will give the opportunity. The possibility to get it later on.

[Customer] But right now the situation is that I have two problems with the car: The FSD has not been delivered yet. And dashcam is broken. And both of these could be fixed by basicly paying for MCU2.

[Paul] Yes. And MCU2 is an upgrade.

[Customer] Yeah, I understand.

[Paul] So, I do not know what the cost is.

[Customer] I know. It is $1500.

[Paul] Is it?

[Customer] Yes. Plus $500 for the FM tuner. So...

[Paul] $2000 for the MCU2. Ok.

[Customer] What I would suggest it that you would pay for it, because you broke the car. And it is under warranty.

[Paul] We broke the car?

[Customer] Yes, basically by installing the FSD. So that broke the dashcam.

[Paul] Did we sell you the FSD, or did you decide to purchase the FSD? Two different things. If the customer decides that they want to purchase the FSD, that is 100% on the customer.

[Customer] You do understand that the deal was not that it would break features from the car.

[Paul] It did not break anything. So basically, if you do want dashcam to work, we can take off the FSD. But you want the FSD. And to get the FSD, you need to upgrade to MCU2.

[Customer] If that is the case, then I would like to return the FSD and have full refund for it.

[Paul] Ok. Then I go ahead and.. Did you buy buy this online?

[Customer] Yes. I did buy it online. It cost... I had the - what it is called, the - Enhanced Autopilot before that. And then I paid $5000 for the FSD.

[Paul] FSD. So yes. You purchased it online, I believe there is way for you to do the return online.

[Customer] There is not.

[Paul] Then we would need to find out how to do that return. Yeah.

[Customer] If that is possible, then I would like to do that.

[Paul] Yeah. We'll return the FSD. Because, we are not gonna give free MCU2s for every customer who buys an FSD because it does not come with it. Two separate things. If you want the FSD, then the MCU2 needs to be upgraded. If it does not get upgraded, then you would wait until there is a fix by engineering team. Which I am not sure what that is at the moment.

[Customer] Yeah, I guess that the challenge is that nobody knows when that fix might appear.

[Paul] Well, exactly. That is why I am telling you that I am not sure if that MCU2 is gonna work. But if the customer says thay hey it is gonna work. I wanna buy it. That is up to the customer.

[Customer] Then we have a resolution: I just want to return the [FSD]...

[Paul turns to speak with service rep] This one, I just need to write notes on it and figure out how to do the refund for the FSD.

[Service rep] Gotcha. I'll ...

[Paul] I think once it returns, I do not know if customer has another opportunity to that in the future. I do not know...

[Customer] That is a separate issue that..

[Paul] Yeah.

[Service rep] Ok. Gotha.

[Paul] All right.

[Service rep] Perfect.

[Paul] Sounds good.

[Customer] All right.

[Paul leaves to let service rep handle the practicalities] Where is Mario...