Should Tesla Reconsider Policy re: Credit for 19" Sig|Perf Wheels?

[Robert.Boston]

There is always the possibility of a robust secondary market, @swegman, whereby you take delivery of the 21" rims, also buy 19" rims, and resell the 21" rims to a buyer who bought the 19" from Tesla but wants a set of summer performance rims. Still, a lot of transactions costs in that, compared to Tesla doing the right thing.

 

[roblab]

Well, for the other side, Tesla is in business. I don't expect any business to do the right thing if it gets in the way of profit, and they won't be in business if they don't make a profit big time, this year. I have spent more on this car (which I have never seen yet) than any of several cars I have bought, combined, but I am supporting Tesla, and EVs, and sustainability principle. We might not win that. And then, Tesla has to get customers, many of whom will not think like each other, will buy a car simply because they like it, and will want both sets of rims given to them, along with extra leather, and some CF thrown in. From my point of view, obviously biased, obviously wrong-headed, I think Tesla has done remarkably.

Not too long ago there was no Tesla. No one ever thought any car company could get into the market unless they were already established, and the established companies did a lot of things that people didn't like, too, not just rim running. You could lease an EV, or build one. You could get a heavy steel body with 800 lb of batteries, and it might go 100 miles at 45 mph. It cost more than any gas car, and the dealer was surly. I'm on Tesla's side. If you don't like the offer, sure, Tesla is THE FIRST car maker to actually listen to design ideas and be unusually transparent, but don't expect too much.

Their first job, which we all want them to complete, is to make a profit. I support them.

 

[Larry Chanin]

Well, for the other side, Tesla is in business. I don't expect any business to do the right thing if it gets in the way of profit, and they won't be in business if they don't make a profit big time, this year. I have spent more on this car (which I have never seen yet) than any of several cars I have bought, combined, but I am supporting Tesla, and EVs, and sustainability principle. We might not win that. And then, Tesla has to get customers, many of whom will not think like each other, will buy a car simply because they like it, and will want both sets of rims given to them, along with extra leather, and some CF thrown in. From my point of view, obviously biased, obviously wrong-headed, I think Tesla has done remarkably.

Not too long ago there was no Tesla. No one ever thought any car company could get into the market unless they were already established, and the established companies did a lot of things that people didn't like, too, not just rim running. You could lease an EV, or build one. You could get a heavy steel body with 800 lb of batteries, and it might go 100 miles at 45 mph. It cost more than any gas car, and the dealer was surly. I'm on Tesla's side. If you don't like the offer, sure, Tesla is THE FIRST car maker to actually listen to design ideas and be unusually transparent, but don't expect too much.

Their first job, which we all want them to complete, is to make a profit. I support them.

Hi Rob,
With all due respect, you're preaching to the choir. :smile:

The issue is not whether we support Tesla. We certainly can support Tesla and still offer constructive criticism. The fact is that Tesla listens. They have read these forums in the past and have made adjustments. Those changes benefited BOTH Tesla and their customers. For example, adding sun shades to the panoramic roof. Many folks living in warm climates simply would not have purchased the panoramic roof without the shade. By making an accommodation they probably increased profitability. In the case of these wheels without an accommodation a number of Signature reservation holders may feel compelled to downgrade to a General Production model and spend much less overall.

As was stated earlier, offering the roof option is much more logistically difficult and therefore more costly than switching wheels, yet nevertheless Tesla still offerred roof options.

Larry

 

[NigelM]

The 4.4s 0-60mph is a performance version only standard and the performance wheels have the Continental tires which provide the grip to enable that. That suggests that a performance version will not achieve 4.4s if it's got the standard Goodyear tires. What will it achieve? 5.0s? 5.3s? I ask the question as I'm not sure I understand why someone would buy a performance version and then effectively slow down the car. Will that change of wheels slow it down till there's only a negligible acceleration difference to the standard 5.6s?

If I felt strongly about the wheels/tires I think I'd just get a standard version and then fully load with every conceivable extra....and I'd get the price I want:

Fully Loaded Standard S = $82,350
Loaded Performance S...= $94,350
Performance S w/o 21"...= $90,850 (assuming Tesla gives a $3,500 discount for trading down to 19" wheels)

So (provocatively) if you're not getting performance acceleration, aren't you just paying $8,500 for snazzier leather and the option to get CF bits?

Personally, I think even with the Signature Model I would get a Standard Sig rather than a half-hearted Performance version. I know lots of people are going to respond about the state of their roads, but if you really live somewhere that bad then does it make sense for you to invest in a Performance model at all?

(Runs for cover...)

 

[Doug_G]

There are other tire options for 19"; you don't have to run the rubber the factory gives you.

Mind you, it's a waste to toss out perfectly good stock tires. If I were to get 19" I'd probably ask for winter tires on the car and a spare set of rims so I could buy my choice of summer tire.

 

[qwk]

Its very easy to just put sticky tires on whenever you want(track events), but very difficult to upgrade to performance on a whim.

 

[NigelM]

There are other tire options for 19"; you don't have to run the rubber the factory gives you.

Mind you, it's a waste to toss out perfectly good stock tires. If I were to get 19" I'd probably ask for winter tires on the car and a spare set of rims so I could buy my choice of summer tire.

21" performance for summer, 19" spare rims for winter! Easy.....

Its very easy to just put sticky tires on whenever you want(track events), but very difficult to upgrade to performance on a whim.

True, but how many are really going to track events in the family car. Performance junkies (moi? ) will buy the performance wheels anyway.

 

[Doug_G]

21" performance for summer, 19" spare rims for winter! Easy.....

Well, I am planning on 21" summer and 19" winter, but I was just pointing out there are options...

True, but how many are really going to track events in the family car. Performance junkies (moi? ) will buy the performance wheels anyway.

Our local sales rep suggested that the Model S could be a very good track car. It's got liquid cooling for the PEM and motor, and very low center of gravity for cornering, so in those respects it could be better than the Roadster. I'd be very tempted to try it once just to see how it does.

(I've actually taken my "family car" to the track several times. The G37 did pretty well - better in the straights than the corners - but it needed upgrades to the brakes.)

 

[NigelM]

/\
So you prove my theory correct. The racers will get the performance wheels anyway.

 

[qwk]

21" performance for summer, 19" spare rims for winter! Easy.....



True, but how many are really going to track events in the family car. Performance junkies (moi? ) will buy the performance wheels anyway.

You are in Florida, but not every performance junkie lives in the tropics. I live miles away from pavement, and go places that the performance wheels/tires would be trashed in weeks. Does this mean I have to settle for a snail car? No way.

 

[NigelM]

Does this mean I have to settle for a snail car?

5.6s is a "snail car"??

As you're a racer, I'm curious what you think a performance S will do without stickys on?

 

[qwk]

It's hard to tell how the performance s will behave with all season tires on, but it really doesnt matter. One should get better times(if only slightly) with the 19 inch wheels with sticky tires because of the weight difference. Wheels only take minutes to swap.

And, yes 5.6 is kind of slow to me. A Newer v8 camaro or mustang beats that easily. I'm used to 9 second quarter mile cars, which is certainly not the norm.

 

[Jason S]

Maybe I'm missing something here, but doesn't the $3500 differential really matter most to those who are buying the non-performance signature model S? The Sig comes with 21" tires and 5.6s speed, so the 21" tires are basically wasted unless going with performance version.

The regular Sig works really well for early adopters who will driver a lot of miles, and therefore the aero tires might make the most sense. That's the $2000 difference mentioned earlier. $2000 is enough to buy a winter set, which would be a nice bonus rather than use all season tires in the snow.

Fortunately I live in California and don't need to deal with snow on a yearly basis, but many customers and prospects do need to deal with snow and rain so maybe the 19" tires make the most sense for those folks. Or maybe just potholes.

On the other hand I agree it doesn't make much sense to get the Perf version then use the 19" tires. But I also suspect you don't need the 21" tires to benefit from the extra acceleration from the perf version.

 

[kvietor]

I have been a reservation holder since the unvieling in March of '09 and had fallen in love with the styling of the Model S from the very beginning. That included the turbine style rims. Not until reading some of the posts concerning the high performance rubber and their less than desireable tread wear did I have any concern. I had no intention of replacing my tires every 10,000 miles. So, I for one would be thrilled if the 19" rims came in the same turbine style. Alas, that aint the case and I REALLY did not want the 19" rims offered regardless of the cost/credit. On the bright side, I checked on Sears.com for the cost of the Continental Extreme Contacts that are currently on the Model S ($219 ea) and found that they carry a warranty of 50,000 miles. That's not to say they will last that long but the warranty does provide for a fair credit based on the condition of the tires and provided they have been maitained (balanced and rotated).

 

[Jason S]

@kvietor, yes the 21" tire choice seems to have exceptional wear ratings. Once I saw the choice and compared to 19" tires... I'll still take the 21s, tyvm.

 

[spatterso911]

I feel the same way @Jason S. I have 35 series tires on my car, Michelin Pilot Sport 2's, which are not known for good tread wear. In six years, I have replaced the rears twice, and am ready to replace the fronts now for the second time. That averages out to about 25K miles per set of tires. The rears should last to about 75K miles, the fronts to 90K (30K per set of fronts). I'm okay with that. I'm sure I could run a hardier set of tires all around, but I am partial to the Pilot Sport 2 line at least for this model as they give me the best all-around performance. The Conti's it came with were pretty good as well. I ran a set of Nitto's on my previous M5 and they were a regrettable set of tires. I will go with the 21's and hopefully be satisfied with the wear on them.

 

[KBF]

If it was the difference between 18 and 19" rims I wouldn't care, but since 21's are not practical at all and the people I know who work with tires all say I should not touch them, leads me to think its a bad idea to make them standard (at least for Canada, where most of our roads are too bumpy). Its not a dealbreaker, but one of those things that may help me to decide whether to switch down to a P reservation.

 

[Larry Chanin]

I have been a reservation holder since the unvieling in March of '09 and had fallen in love with the styling of the Model S from the very beginning. That included the turbine style rims. Not until reading some of the posts concerning the high performance rubber and their less than desireable tread wear did I have any concern. I had no intention of replacing my tires every 10,000 miles. So, I for one would be thrilled if the 19" rims came in the same turbine style. Alas, that aint the case and I REALLY did not want the 19" rims offered regardless of the cost/credit. On the bright side, I checked on Sears.com for the cost of the Continental Extreme Contacts that are currently on the Model S ($219 ea) and found that they carry a warranty of 50,000 miles. That's not to say they will last that long but the warranty does provide for a fair credit based on the condition of the tires and provided they have been maitained (balanced and rotated).

I share your feelings and if 19" turbine wheels with all season tires were offered as an option that would be what I would get.

Thanks for that warranty information. It does offer some room for a bit of optimism that perhaps the Continentals will last more than 10,000 miles.

With regard to rotating tires I imagine that with mirror image turbine wheels on each side of the car that we will have to be vigilent that non-Tesla service technicians maintain the proper right-left symmetry.

Larry

 

[swegman]

NigelM said "If I felt strongly about the wheels/tires I think I'd just get a standard version and then fully load with every conceivable extra". The problem is, it is not possible to fully load up the standard version to equip it like the Performance Production or Signature model.

I can care less about the car doing 0-60 in 4.4 seconds. I have had 4 retina detachments and 5 eye surgeries. My sports car driving days are over. However, I want the upgraded quality leather with the coordinated color piping, and CF trim, and leather on the door panels and lower dash. Plus the alcatera on the seats, etc. These items are not offered on the non-Performance Production model. And the Signature non-Performance model does not offer the solid leather with color coordinated piping. So it is not possible to do as NigelM suggests.

If all these features were available as options for the non-Performance Production model, this whole thread would be irrelevant, as one could do as NogelM suggests. But this option is not available.

As I said before, every rep in the Northeast corridor that I have spoken to, including Tesla personnel in CA, have advised against the 21 inch wheels with low profile tires. My Mercedes SLK350 has low profile tires. About a month ago, a pothole bend one rim. $1,100 to replace it. And this happens too often in this area. Low profile tires result in more rim damage from potholes. It is as simple as that. I am not even discussing that such tires need more frequent replacement. I don't want to be constantly repairing or replacing rims.

 

[rlawson4]

NigelM said "If I felt strongly about the wheels/tires I think I'd just get a standard version and then fully load with every conceivable extra". The problem is, it is not possible to fully load up the standard version to equip it like the Performance Production or Signature model.

I can care less about the car doing 0-60 in 4.4 seconds. I have had 4 retina detachments and 5 eye surgeries. My sports car driving days are over. However, I want the upgraded quality leather with the coordinated color piping, and CF trim, and leather on the door panels and lower dash. Plus the alcatera on the seats, etc. These items are not offered on the non-Performance Production model. And the Signature non-Performance model does not offer the solid leather with color coordinated piping. So it is not possible to do as NigelM suggests.

If all these features were available as options for the non-Performance Production model, this whole thread would be irrelevant, as one could do as NogelM suggests. But this option is not available.

As I said before, every rep in the Northeast corridor that I have spoken to, including Tesla personnel in CA, have advised against the 21 inch wheels with low profile tires. My Mercedes SLK350 has low profile tires. About a month ago, a pothole bend one rim. $1,100 to replace it. And this happens too often in this area. Low profile tires result in more rim damage from potholes. It is as simple as that. I am not even discussing that such tires need more frequent replacement. I don't want to be constantly repairing or replacing rims.

Exactly!! I want the upgraded interior. If I could configure the standard model with the upgraded interior that would be fine. I think Tesla is being short-sited here. A simple house credit for the downgrade to the 19" inch wheels makes many customers happy.