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Should Type 2 (Mennekes) be adopted as world plug (or in USA at least)?

Discussion in 'Charging Standards and Infrastructure' started by Bipo, Apr 26, 2013.

  1. Bipo

    Bipo Member

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    It is not much bigger but allows to use 3-ph current. That means 73% faster charging under 208/120 V (very common in a lot of charging stations). Of course, it supports 240 V split phase up to 125 A (almost double the usual 70 A of J1772). It also supports 140 A under DC. And with the Combo 2 plug it rises up to 200-250 A.

    Model S in Europe will have this socket in the car, modified to support SC. I think it is the ideal plug... And is not too late to change the code in USA and switch to the better plug.

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    What do you think?
     
  2. TonyWilliams

    TonyWilliams Active Member

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    Good luck!!! With 3 phase not even available in many places in North America, it's a non-starter.
     
  3. Bipo

    Bipo Member

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    I know, but it allows more current under split phase and DC. Is not "or" but "and"... No disadvantages!

    Where you find 208 V instead of 240 V it means 3-ph, and there are a lot of that!
     
  4. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    #4 stopcrazypp, Apr 26, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2013
    AFAIK, the Mennekes socket is rated only up to 63A for single phase:
    http://www.mennekes.de/uploads/media/Infrastructure_GB_110511_low_873000DS.pdf
    Here's the same information from the IEC:
    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:yUONu6VUc2QJ:http://www.iec.ch/newslog/2011/doc/1611_EV_technical_document.docx%2BIEC+62196-2+250a+ac&hl=en&gbv=2&gs_l=heirloom-serp.3...8529.9236.0.9328.5.2.0.3.0.0.88.160.2.2.0...0.0...1ac.1.kQmg3D0dfGc&ct=clnk

    125A are the older IEC 60309 connectors which was part of IEC 62196-1 (2003). I Believe it was removed from IEC 62196-2 after Mennekes replaced it (those connectors were deemed too bulky).
     
  5. Bipo

    Bipo Member

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    Thanks for the info. There we can see that it supports up to 70 A in one-phase (same as J1772).

    Anyway, I cannot see the problem of have a connector that allows 3-ph, even if it's not common across USA... It brings the option of providing more power over AC with less amps, without any counterpart.
     
  6. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    J1772 actually goes up to 80A for single phase:
    http://www.sae.org/smartgrid/chargingspeeds.pdf
    You can buy a 80A J1772 DC EVSE since 2011 (the CS-100):
    http://www.clippercreek.com/uploads/ClipperCreek%20CS%20Series%20Public%20EVSE.pdf

    Some of the pieces for the Mennekes VDE-AR-E 2623-2-2 standard mention 70A, but when referencing to the actual IEC 62196-2 standard, 63A is the highest I have seen. And I believe there are no plans for any 70A stations in Europe, esp. since they are focused on 3-phase (so they don't need as high a current rating).

    The problem with going with Mennekes is you have extra pins that will be unused by practically all level 2 stations in the US. This adds extra expense and weight for little benefit. It'll only be used for the few rare places with 3-phase and those places are more likely to have a DC charger. That's why SAE and Japan went with Yazaki's plug.

    I can only see moving to Mennekes if the US begins offering 3-phase as a common feature for residential/commercial areas (rather than mainly industrial areas as it is now). Yes, you do save some money on installing DC chargers when using a 3-phase capable plug, but that's balanced with the cost of the onboard charger.
     
  7. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    The presence of 208V just means that there is a 3-phase transformer bank nearby serving the building, but in most cases you won't find all 3 phases in the local panels.

    They have a saying about standards -- they're a wonderful thing, because each person can have his own. :)

    You'd have to get the appropriate automotive standards agency (SAE) to change its standard. It may happen in the future on a global scale but for now I just don't see enough uptake of 3-phase in the US to make Mennekes worth fighting the SAE.
     
  8. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    Technically one could extend the Mennekes plug standard to accept combining two and two pins for high amperage single phase charging. Like L1,L2 combined and L3,N combined. The plug would then support 126A single phase. You'd need a 160A fuse though, but would get 30kW charging.
     
  9. GSP

    GSP Member

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    If I remember correctly, the ISO standard supports combining the Mennekes pins to get high current DC, and perhaps also high current single phase AC as jkirkebo suggests.

    GSP
     
  10. FlasherZ

    FlasherZ Sig Model S + Sig Model X + Model 3 Resv

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    It would take some pretty serious lobbying to get the NEC to allow for a connector to combine pins for out-of-phase ungrounded conductors, and even more to permit combination of pins for ungrounded and grounded conductors (under fault you can end up with a dead short). Most likely, you're going to require high-amperage disconnect-before-connect contactors like those found in automatic transfer switches. It's just a bad, bad idea.
     
  11. stopcrazypp

    stopcrazypp Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the safety aspect is what I was thinking about too when talking about combining pins. I believe NEC does not allow two wires to be combined into one (connected at both ends) unless it is 1/0 AWG or thicker. 80A is only 3AWG.
     

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