Signature Angst

[Tesla 940]

You have a limited run production vehicle. That should help with resale value in the future.

That does not appear to hold true with the Roadster. I seriously considered putting down $75k to be on the list of the first 100 owners and then wait 3+ years. For various reasons I choose not to.

A used Roadster 1.5 does sell for nearly what a 2.5 goes for.

All the Signature series seems to get people is the car earlier so you can "show off" to your friends. Kind of reminds me of people that stand outside overnight at Best Buy to get the latest cell phone a week earlier that their friends. In return for all that "show off" potential is the joy of dealing with a lot of production bugs that get worked out in later production, and various upgrades that make the early cars less valuable.

 

[Doug_G]

There's always the sig nose cone that nobody else got and which we still don't have a good explanation for - maybe that makes it easier to add something cool in the future?

That isn't a "Sig" nose cone. It's just an "early" nose cone. The Canadian Sigs do not have it. I think they changed the nose cone to reduce production costs and and improve cosmetics.

 

[William13]

I bought the Sig with my eyes both open. I will never spend as much for a car again, but I think the Sig Red and Cream interior were worth the extra. Plus I am supporting Tesla and true electric cars. I put my money where my mouth is about energy and our future.

 

[Right_Said_Fred]

For Europe at least Tesla can still make a mence and provide some extra free options or services to Signature-reservation holders (who, it's unbelievable,, are still limited in their choice to 4 colours, even though all colours are being painted already). At the moment all we are getting for providing Tesla with a lot of extra working capital (which we don't mind, since we want Tesla to succeed) and for paying a few thousand € extra is negligable. The main pro was first delivery and even that seems to have gone out the door, now that it looks like Norwegian P's will be delivered before Sigs in other European countries...

 

[walla2]

To be clear, I am still very happy with my Tesla. The car is amazing with only a few bugs that I am confident service will fix. I "sell" the Model S, the X, Elon Musk's brilliance, and his companies to many people, just not the Signature. I don't mention that my car is a Sig, that's not important to me. When a very interested buyer asks me about a Sig X, I tell them to go regular production. My reason for the Signature initially was to get the car early, not for any other reason. The premium for early was worth it because when I upgraded from a fairly low P in the 1400's I was told July instead of early 2013. This turned out to be more than 5 months off for my Sig, and it would have been possible to get P1407 in December (literally the same month). When I finalized in July, I was told October. When my Sig didn't deliver until December after multiple missed windows and radio silence from Tesla, it was delivered after a number of regular production cars (Performance and non-performance). The only reason I think I made December was because I threatened to cancel. To get the car delivered when I did, I had to take a day off, rent a one-way car, ride a bus, and then wait around in a small town 179 miles from my home in the cold until it showed up by trailer. Otherwise, it would have been weeks to months later according to my DS.

I have repeatedly asked Tesla over the phone and in emails for a simple apology, an explanation, and/or both. I still wouldn't recommend a Sig for the reasons posted here, but it would provide me some closure on this. For some reason, they aren't interested simply saying "sorry about the missed windows and the later than intended delivery."

Why wouldn't I recommend Signature? You get nothing extra and you don't even necessarily get an early car. Since you can now get a Performance car in 1-2 months off the line, there is no reason to not be minimally patient and get a more-refined car at a lower price.

 

[brianman]

A discount after the premium that Signature customers already paid? As it stands, reducing the price of future upgrades would mean Signature reservation holders prepaid for these upgrades. It would have to be a significant discount above the $4,500 to $6,600 premium paid per car.

I'd be satisfied that my premium was prepaid service, upgrades, etc. However, I am resigned to the fact that I bought a $6,600 gym bag.

Uh oh, you woke up michiganmodels. Long time no see!

- - - Updated - - -

Perhaps, but my service center has offered to replace that on a couple occasions. If there's something special about it, they apparently don't know.

Did they quote you a price? It might be worth it if it's low enough... to preserve my Sig cone before I mess it up.

 

[Right_Said_Fred]

To be clear, I am still very happy with my Tesla. The car is amazing with only a few bugs that I am confident service will fix. I "sell" the Model S, the X, Elon Musk's brilliance, and his companies to many people, just not the Signature. I don't mention that my car is a Sig, that's not important to me. When a very interested buyer asks me about a Sig X, I tell them to go regular production. My reason for the Signature initially was to get the car early, not for any other reason. The premium for early was worth it because when I upgraded from a fairly low P in the 1400's I was told July instead of early 2013. This turned out to be more than 5 months off for my Sig, and it would have been possible to get P1407 in December (literally the same month). When I finalized in July, I was told October. When my Sig didn't deliver until December after multiple missed windows and radio silence from Tesla, it was delivered after a number of regular production cars (Performance and non-performance). The only reason I think I made December was because I threatened to cancel. To get the car delivered when I did, I had to take a day off, rent a one-way car, ride a bus, and then wait around in a small town 179 miles from my home in the cold until it showed up by trailer. Otherwise, it would have been weeks to months later according to my DS.

I have repeatedly asked Tesla over the phone and in emails for a simple apology, an explanation, and/or both. I still wouldn't recommend a Sig for the reasons posted here, but it would provide me some closure on this. For some reason, they aren't interested simply saying "sorry about the missed windows and the later than intended delivery."

Why wouldn't I recommend Signature? You get nothing extra and you don't even necessarily get an early car. Since you can now get a Performance car in 1-2 months off the line, there is no reason to not be minimally patient and get a more-refined car at a lower price.

Amazing that this can happen on George B's watch. I thought that by now everyone at Tesla would be aware that the customer has to be their first, second and third concern.

 

[AnOutsider]

Did they quote you a price? It might be worth it if it's low enough... to preserve my Sig cone before I mess it up.

No, I didn't go for it. The way it was stated though, it SOUNDED like it may have been no-cost.

 

[linaser]

I'll pay $144162 for my (almost) fully loaded Sig Perf+ and delivery is still 3 months away.

The only reason, why I opted for a Sig was, to get it earlier.

And because GB promised Sigs in Europe for "late 2012" that was ok for me, when I made the reservation.

But now, it's almost a year after the first Sigs went to their customers in the U.S. and I'm still waiting. When I signed the pre MVPA in January, I was told, that delivery would be in spring. Now I'm hopping for July.

... It's just frustrating ...

P.S. You can get a (stripped) brand new M5 for about $100000 here in Switzerland, but I'd never go for that. There is just no other car out there, that really compares to the Model S in so many ways.

The difference is the VAT, luckily I am not going to pay that this time. VAT is 25% in Norway and I think that is the same in moste EU contries. With VAT my car would cost $160980... The price for a fully loaded Model S Signature Performance Plus is NOK 748050 without VAT and the VAT on BEV cars is 0%

In Switzerland out VAT is only 8%, but wages and rent is more expensive. Maybe thats why Tesla is charging more in Switzerland.

But the bottomline for me is, that the Sig premium is really unfair to the Europeans, who decided to go for a Sig, to get their cars earlier.

And now it even looks like there might be GP deliverys in Norway, before the Sigs in the rest of Europe are going to be delivered.

 

[VolkerP]

In Switzerland, 4 years of service are included.

 

[ToddRLockwood]

For me, Signature was all about supporting the company and the technology.
If you are focused on goodies, you should wait for the inclusion of adaptive cruise control, parking sensors, etc.
I chose to lead by example and put my money where my mouth is.
I have no regrets, and am proud to support such a revolutionary company.

Right on, Zythryn. In addition, you probably got a car that was personally inspected by Elon Musk, possibly in a color only found on other signatures. To call the signature a lousy value misses the point. If you're looking for a good deal, you probably don't belong in a signature.

 

[AnOutsider]

If you're looking for a good deal, you probably don't belong in a signature.

Sorry, not sure if you meant it that way, but to me that comes across as both dismissive and condescending. I'm not sure if anyone here was looking for a "good deal" when they upgraded to the sig. If you read all the posts here, the overarching theme is that Tesla was pushing it as a uniquely optioned car with other perks.

The Model X reveal was sigs only IIRC -- that's a perk, not a deal. We got a year free of internet -- that's a perk. However, I think things hit a wall when it was discovered that the cars would cost MORE than a similarly equipped Production car AND have less options available. So, it became a car that was only uniquely optioned if you chose a certain paint or seat color AND you paid extra for it. You were also barred from options that general production cars had available.

They pushed it as an exclusive and prestige option and it ended up being, in many ways, less than a general production car. I'm not sure about you, but I would expect to be somehow rewarded for not only loaning the company 8x more money than a standard reservation but also paying more than them, not punished. Your comment seemed to insinuate that only affluent people with money to toss around should be in a signature car. Does this include customers who want to pay more for less?

 

[Arnold Panz]

And a serious lack of communication, routinely missed delivery windows, little to no information about production and a host of other issues that current customers don't have to deal with. Sigs were the guinea pigs for a lot that Tesla did, and they'd be (and were) the first to admit that communication was not what it should have been, yet we paid more for the privilege of beings those guinea pigs, with fewer color options on fully loaded cars.

The original question was whether someone should get a Sig X or Gen III. The answer is an emphatic "no" based on the S Sig experience, unless you wait until the last minute and want to jump the line. That was the one tangible, legitimate worthwhile benefit of being a Sig. Or, you can make your donation to Tesla, but I would suggest that buying the stock accomplishes the same thing and gives you the benefit of the upside of the company doing well.

 

[brianman]

If you're looking for a good deal, you probably don't belong in a signature.

AO covered most of it but, I think you're also missing another point he didn't mention.

You make it sound like people are asking for a discount for the Sig. On the contrary, the primary complaint is about paying a premium to have fewer options than GP. If the Sig "premium" was merely the time-value of the "early" $35k, there would be no issue.

 

[Eberhard]

I gave a interest-free loan at full risk to Elon for more then 2 years? Waiting more than one year longer than the american customers, bought and tested the Roadster 2 1/2 years with now 135.000km on the odometer and i got ask to pay a premium for a packet that the car will perform better in a colder climate her in germany or better spoken: we are sorry we forgot again that there is a wintertime outside california.
Any european car get tested in the colds before being released to the market and cold weather option is a extra set of winter tires and an independent additional heater? Not only better insulation and correctly placed outlet grills. And parking sensors for 500 bucks where you can find them for less than $50 on ebay?
Elon i feel liked do get roped out.
Last but not least an performance plus packet to correct a not so perfect setup needed for such a performance car? where is the value for money concept?

i am very disappointed and i am thinking about a downgrade from Sig Perform to standard 85kW GP (and getting more choice of colors)

 

[ToddRLockwood]

Sorry, not sure if you meant it that way, but to me that comes across as both dismissive and condescending.

There are factors at play here that are perhaps not obvious in hindsight...

Model S Signature owners were motivated by several things: unique color and interior options, early delivery, special badging, exclusivity, the possibility of higher resale value, and the desire to help insure the success of the company. That certain features were not included on the signatures is likely due to the fact that those features were not in production yet. The Model S is a work in progress. There are features on current production S's not found on cars made four months ago.

When I ordered my car last August, I didn't feel that the Model S Signature was worth the difference in price. Had the Sig Red paint been available as a $2,000 option, I might have gone for it. But otherwise, I couldn't justify the price difference, and I was willing to wait longer for my car. But I understand why, to some, the Model S Signature would be the obvious choice. Some people simply want to buy "the best," especially when spending this kind of money.

Complications and misunderstandings arise when the product keeps getting improved, and early adopters don't get the full benefit of those upgrades. That's why traditional car manufacturers tend to lock down the feature list for a given model year and withhold any additions until the next annual cycle. Personally, I love the fact that Tesla is constantly improving its cars, responding to problems and owner requests in real time. To the degree that it's feasible, Tesla is upgrading earlier cars at the company's expense or providing owner upgrade paths.

Tesla may need to review its signature approach with the Model X. Given Tesla's learning experiences of 2012, I imagine the Model X will be a more mature product when it's released.

 

[vfx]

.... Given Tesla's learning experiences of 2012, I imagine the Model X will be a more mature product when it's released.

Yes it will. But the improvements will still come out rapidly. Tesla is (for now) a nimble company. Coming out with new features every month or so I believe will be a Tesla trademark in the automotive world.

 

[brianman]

When I ordered my car last August, I didn't feel that the Model S Signature was worth the difference in price.

Tesla may need to review its signature approach with the Model X.

Interesting turnabout. Your original post had a very different tone and content. This post is basically agreeing with the general tenor of this thread. I'm somewhat confused by the difference. Nonetheless, not worth dwelling on I suppose.

 

[smorgasbord]

And parking sensors for 500 bucks where you can find them for less than $50 on ebay?

That's not a valid comparison. BMW, for instance, charges $380 for parking sensors (rear only) on the 1-series. So, Tesla's not out of line here.

 

[Arnold Panz]

Interesting turnabout. Your original post had a very different tone and content. This post is basically agreeing with the general tenor of this thread. I'm somewhat confused by the difference. Nonetheless, not worth dwelling on I suppose.

In fairness, Todd only ordered his car last August. At that point, the full spectrum of the Sig value proposition (or lack thereof) was readily apparent. The point that AO, Michiganmodels, I and others have made is that we ordered our Sigs years earlier with much less actual information, but promises that essentially weren't delivered on in the way we expected (something besides unique colors), and we were charged more for the privilege.

To me, this was always Tesla's fundamental mistake with Sigs -- Tesla was already getting (hopefully) the profits off of us buying fully loaded Sigs. Charging a hefty premium on top of that with no discernible benefits (other than earlier delivery, which wasn't that big a benefit for early Sig reservations), coupled with the usual hiccups of a ramp-up like Tesla had as Sigs started rolling off the line (including poor communications), made for unnecessarily frustrated Sig owners, who otherwise could and should have been Tesla's biggest advocates and fans.

I still push everyone I talk to to buy a Model S (or any EV) and sing Tesla's praises. I couldn't love my car any more. I've completely forgiven Tesla, but I'll never forget, which is why I would never recommend that someone else buy a Sig unless line-jumping is worthwhile for them.