Signature Pricing versus Mercedes Benz E series and BMW 5 Series

[DaveVa]

I've now had time to let the announced Model S Signature pricing sink in a bit. While I am a huge supporter of Tesla and what it is trying to accomplish with the Model-S, I am a bit disapointed that it is not more cost competative with the very cars that they have asked to be compared.

I know I am not counting the long term fuel and maintenance savings in this equation - just the amount of money that would be needed for the actual purchase. Effectively, Tesla is putting a 20K premium on the car over its ICE competition (and that is after the tax rebate!). You can buy a cheaper Model S, just like you could by a cheaper BMW 5 series and a cheaper MB E-series, but I wanted to compare top of the line (but not M or AMG sport editions which would compete with the Signature Sport) with similar luxury packages. The gap becomes even greater if you facture in the the ability to negotiatiate a significant discount on list from either BMW or MB.

Just curious as to other people's thoughts....

TESLA
Model S Signature $87,900
Pano Roof $1,500
Total $89,400

BMW
My 550i Sedan
4.4 liter, V8 with TwinPower Turbo technology
Rear-wheel drive
Base MSRP $61,700
Tasman Green Metallic $0
Black Dakota Leather $0
Light wood trim $0
Convenience Package $1,700
Luxury Seating Package $2,400
Premium Sound Package $950
Heated front seats $500
Destination & Handling: $875
Total MSRP as Built $68,125

Mercedes Benz
The 2012 E550 4MATIC Sedan
MSRP* $59,790
COLOR
Exterior: Black $0
Interior: Black Leather $0
Trim: Burl Walnut Wood Trim $0

PACKAGES
Premium 1 Package Included with package
Premium 2 Package $6,900

OPTIONS
Panorama sunroof $1,090
Split-folding rear seats $440

BASE MSRP $59,790

TRANSPORTATION CHARGE $875

GAS GUZZLER TAX $0
TOTAL PRICE $69,095

 

[Doug_G]

Dude, it's an electric car. It's gonna be more expensive.

 

[Mycroft]

Plus, you should be comparing it to the non-Sig model.

Base 85kWh = $69,900
Metallic Paint = $750
Pano Roof = $1,500
Leather = $1,500
Tech Pkg = $3,500
Audio = $950
Total = $78,100

Now subtract the value of massive storage, unmatched 17" tech package, and the ability to bump up to a very impressive performance package for only $10k more! How much would it cost to bump the Beemer up the 'M' or the Merc up to AMG??

I think the EV price penalty is rather small in this comparison.

 

[Bearman]

I think you should wait and see what comes standard and go see it before you decide, you could drop down to a non sig if it would fit you better. The alcantara leather would add another $1000 to the bmw also the sig has got active air suspension standard and if you get any suspension upgrades to the bmw it could add another 2500-3800 depending on package also active steering would add another 1750 and so on. So just wait and see or drop down to a non sig, I think its too early to make an informed decision at this time.

 

[Robert.Boston]

I think the EV tax is rather small in this comparison.

Rather than thinking of there being an "EV tax", it's better to think of a hidden "ICE tax" in the form of higher operating and maintenance costs. I figure about $2500/year, which has a NPV of about $15,000, for my driving. Depending on your driving habits, that figure could be too high or too low. Tack on that $15,000 to either the BMW or MB, and you quickly pass the $78,100 that Mycroft computes.

 

[NigelM]

It's a small price to pay for saving the planet.....

 

[ckessel]

It's a small price to pay for saving the planet.....

While I understand the sentiment, you have to realize this means almost nothing to the US population at large and will have a correspondingly zero impact on Tesla's ability to ramp up sales. If EV's can't be competitive on tangible costs alone, they won't sell beyond a very tiny niche. Taking fuel and maintenance into consideration, I think EVs are pretty close, but appealing to "saving the planet" is going to get you eye rolls at best and actively turn people off at worst.

The biggest problem is sticker shock. History as shown time and time again people will buy cheap crap repeatedly rather than expensive quality once, even if over the long term the cheap crap costs more.

 

[NigelM]

While my remark was somewhat tongue in cheek, IMHO in many ways it's a valid point. Groundbreaking is always going to be more expensive; low cost will only come through volume and it will be many years before EV volumes come anywhere near ICE volume. Until we as consumers start investing in the future, through our purchase decisions, the EV market will never take off.

The price comparison in the OP is one of apples and oranges.

 

[Mycroft]

There is still an EV premium, and admittedly these are not mass consumer vehicles, but the premium is the lowest it's ever been.

I made the point elsewhere that a $100,000 Performance Model S is pretty damned close in both price and performance to a Porsche Panamera 4S. The 4S is a bit slower at 4.8secs and a bit more expensive, but they're darn close!

 

[Arnold Panz]

Rather than thinking of there being an "EV tax", it's better to think of a hidden "ICE tax" in the form of higher operating and maintenance costs. I figure about $2500/year, which has a NPV of about $15,000, for my driving. Depending on your driving habits, that figure could be too high or too low. Tack on that $15,000 to either the BMW or MB, and you quickly pass the $78,100 that Mycroft computes.

Right -- this whole thing is an apples to oranges comparison because of the substantially lower operating costs of an ICE. And unlike, say, a Toyota Camry to compare to the base price Model S, the repairs/maintenance on a high end Mercedes AMG or BMW M-class are much more expensive, plus you have to use premium (93 octane) gas. A $20k-$30k price difference up front probably makes them about equivalent over a 4-5 year period of ownership.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

Storage & more doesn't compare

much more space than either

550i 14 cf
e550 13.3 cf

model S 36.8 cf (with seats still upright!)

and much lower COG

+ you can drive it indoors

current BMW & MB vs Tesla is

apples to tomatoes ...they are both still fruit

 

[Larry Chanin]

The biggest problem is sticker shock. History as shown time and time again people will buy cheap crap repeatedly rather than expensive quality once, even if over the long term the cheap crap costs more.

Hi,

Unfortunately for a large segment of the population this is currently true. However, most folks are also intellectually lazy and like to delude themselves into thinking that U.S. gas prices will remain at their relatively low, subsidized levels, indefinately. Sooner or later the reality of this finite resource will again raise it ugly head. Likewise, the costs of environmental and medical externalities are never factored into these comparisons even though we are nevertheless paying for them hidden in our and our loved one's medical bills. (By the way, as I write this the news informs me of Iran's threats to close the Straits of Hormuz.)

I'm with Nigel on this. The time is finally right to pay up front for the long-term efficiencies of electric vehicles and by doing so we get a ground breaking and compelling car that may actually turn out to be the catayst needed to "save the planet". :smile:

Larry

 

[ChadS]

The biggest problem is sticker shock. History as shown time and time again people will buy cheap crap repeatedly rather than expensive quality once, even if over the long term the cheap crap costs more.

Agreed. They don't even seem to realize that it costs more. This scenario has probably happened to me well over 100 times by now:

Potential buyer: Sigh. I'd love one, but I just can't afford it at that price.
Me: Would you pay cash if you bought one?
PB: No, I'll lease/get a loan.
Me: Well, don't forget to subtract the fuel savings from your monthly costs. That makes the $350/month Leaf equivalent to a gas car costing $225 per month.
PB: Oh! I hadn't thought of that!

So...point it out to everybody you talk to!

 

[Robert.Boston]

Are insurance companies charging a premium, discount, or neither to insure the Leaf?

 

[vfx]

...
I made the point elsewhere that a $100,000 Performance Model S is pretty damned close in both price and performance to a Porsche Panamera 4S. The 4S is a bit slower at 4.8secs and a bit more expensive, but they're darn close!

I've ridden in both. You simply can't compare stomping on the gas pedal and getting the rev-up-shift-rev-up strain of the Porsche to speed against the eerily smooth "like you dropped from a trapdoor"nonstop acceleration of the Model S.

Get in and drive all your comparison cars before making a buying decision. EVs are way better. Cars are about emotion most of all, and Electrics are just more fun.

 

[Norbert]

Plus, you should be comparing it to the non-Sig model.

Yes, other people seem to make the same mistake, Signature is only the first 1000 cars produced (for the US), after that you can't buy the Signature version anymore.

 

[EVNow]

Are insurance companies charging a premium, discount, or neither to insure the Leaf?

Neither - just going by MSRP.

 

[neroden]

Plus, you should be comparing it to the non-Sig model.

You have neatly demonstrated the problem with Signature (over)pricing there.

 

[AnOutsider]

You have neatly demonstrated the problem with Signature (over)pricing there.

By saying he shouldn't be comparing pricing with the limited, special-edition car? Hey, if you really have a bone to pick with the signature pricing, simply don't get a signature edition Model S. There's no need to constantly harp on about it (unless you're hoping it will somehow change Tesla's mind. If so, please harp to them).

 

[Kevin Harney]

Neroden,

I do not understand your beef with the Signature pricing at all. This is supposed to be a limited edition car that will command extra in the future as there are very few of them. Why in the world would they sell it cheaper ? I understand it is not what you want but really can you give me a good reason other than a "because I said so " attitude ?