Ski Trip Questions

[liuping]

I'd like to take my Model S up to Kirkwood Ski Resort this winter. I'm driving from San Diego, and it looks pretty straight forward using superchargers. Once the Manteca SC is open, they literally line my entire route, so I don't have to go out of my way at all.

Taking into account the elevation loss of 10 miles per 1000ft, I should arrive with about 70 miles of range (The resort is 111 miles from Manteca and I'm assuming 80 miles elevation loss). Parking is underground, but there does not seem to be any outlets available and I will be staying for a week.

How many miles will be lost per day just parked in the cold? I'm assuming I'll have 5.6 software, since my delivery date is 11/27, so vampire lose should be reduced. However, I'm not sure how much extra the cold effects things. I know it gets down to at least freezing in the parking garage, because there are patches of ice down there sometimes.

I've contacted the resort to see if there could make an outlet available some where, so I could move the car every few days to get a couple hours 120v charge. Would that be enough? Any tips on convincing them to provide access to an outlet? I've already said I would pay full cost of electricity plus extra, because I know the power is super expensive up there. They claim to be an environmentally friendly resort, so hopefully they can do something for EVs.

I thought about driving to the one (?!?) charger available in South Lake Tahoe, but it's a 40 miles drive, so the 80 mile round trip would mean I'd have to charge for 4 hours just to break even, assuming the charger is working and available. That seems to risky.

Any and all cold weather advice is most welcome.

 

[Cottonwood]

Cold sucks your battery down a lot, both for cabin heating and heating the battery while driving and warming it up when cold soaked. See Putting some numbers on the factors that affect range ; +25% for 15˚ F. Warming up the battery and cabin from that temp is at least 10 rated miles.

For elevation, I do a lot of driving in the Colorado mountains. 6 or 7 miles per thousand feet is more like what I see.

I very STRONGLY recommend that you find a 120V, 5-15 outlet for use when parked and take a good 12 or 14 gauge extension cord with you. You can get 75 miles per day from a 120V outlet. That is huge over several days parked at a resort. That outlet will use 12 Amps * 120V * 24 hours or about 35 kWh per day. Even at $0.20 per kWh, that is only $7 per day of electricity. If your resort can't help you at least find a 120V outlet, consider finding another resort!

 

[islandbayy]

The cold soak will be detrimental to your battery. The battery warmer will kick in below freezing, and will reduce range. It wont totally drain it, though, will greatly reduce the range over the course of a week.

I would puersue getting a 120v outlet to be able to plug into when not using the vehicle. Even at the lowest amperage, would at least stop the loss due to pack heating. At the highest amperage on a 120v, you'd gain range, even with pack heating. Not much, but would still be gaining. If you can somehow find a NEMA 14-50 that would be awesome and would eliminate your issues completely. Just a hour or two on a 14-50 would all you need, or even get a full charge.

Oh, I HIGHLY recommend purchasing the 20 amp 120v adapter. It's $45, and chargest the car at 16 amps instead of 12 amps (When plugged into a 20 amp 120v outlet), that provides about 33% more power to the car. That is a LOT and really adds up.

 

[liuping]

Cold sucks your battery down a lot, both for cabin heating and heating the battery while driving and warming it up when cold soaked. See Putting some numbers on the factors that affect range ; +25% for 15˚ F. Warming up the battery and cabin from that temp is at least 10 rated miles.

For elevation, I do a lot of driving in the Colorado mountains. 6 or 7 miles per thousand feet is more like what I see.

I very STRONGLY recommend that you find a 120V, 5-15 outlet for use when parked and take a good 12 or 14 gauge extension cord with you. You can get 75 miles per day from a 120V outlet. That is huge over several days parked at a resort. That outlet will use 12 Amps * 120V * 24 hours or about 35 kWh per day. Even at $0.20 per kWh, that is only $7 per day of electricity. If your resort can't help you at least find a 120V outlet, consider finding another resort!

Thanks for that link, there is a ton of great info there.

It's always hard to gauge ahead of time how cold it will be going up the mountain.

I'm not really worried about the cost of electricity, though it is very high there, I believe around $.60/kWh. They are off grid and have their own power station.

I can't really go to another resort, since it's an extended family thing and we meet there every year. If I cannot sort the outlet access, I'll have to take another car, which would be a drag.

- - - Updated - - -

The cold soak will be detrimental to your battery. The battery warmer will kick in below freezing, and will reduce range. It wont totally drain it, though, will greatly reduce the range over the course of a week.

I would pursue getting a 120v outlet to be able to plug into when not using the vehicle. Even at the lowest amperage, would at least stop the loss due to pack heating. At the highest amperage on a 120v, you'd gain range, even with pack heating. Not much, but would still be gaining. If you can somehow find a NEMA 14-50 that would be awesome and would eliminate your issues completely. Just a hour or two on a 14-50 would all you need, or even get a full charge.

Oh, I HIGHLY recommend purchasing the 20 amp 120v adapter. It's $45, and charges the car at 16 amps instead of 12 amps (When plugged into a 20 amp 120v outlet), that provides about 33% more power to the car. That is a LOT and really adds up.

I'm still trying to get to the right person to determine if I can get guaranteed access to an outlet. With electricity so expensive there, I don't think there are just outlets exposed in the underground parking. Hopefully there are some available for maintenance or something, and I can get a spot near there (or trade with someone for there spot, etc).

I definitely will buy what ever plug adapter and/or extension cords are needed based on what they tell me is available. I currently have (or have on order) a 15 ft 14-50 extension cord and the following:

14-50 ----> UMC
5-15 -----> UMC
14-30 ----> 14-50
10-30/50 -> 14-50
6-20 -----> 14-50
TT30 -----> 14-50
5-15/20 --> 14-50

(the 14-50 adapters are from: EVSEadapters.com: Tesla Model S adapters)

 

[Cattledog]

Definitely should be housekeeping outlets in the garage - it's part of the National Electric Code. They require them so people aren't stringing together 500' of extension cords to run pressure washers, blowers, etc. and then starting fires. Good luck!

 

[linkster]

One more item you may consider in your arsenal is a 50 or 100' (I carry a 100') 110-120v 10ga. extension cord. it isn't cheap, but may come in handy to keep your S happy if you can't get close and you only have access to 15 or 20a duplex (preferably dedicated) receptacle.

 

[liuping]

One more item you may consider in your arsenal is a 50 or 100' (I carry a 100') 110-120v 10ga. extension cord. it isn't cheap, but may come in handy to keep your S happy if you can't get close and you only have access to 15 or 20a duplex (preferably dedicated) receptacle.

My wife has a 50' heavy guage extension cord for the her Volt, so I'll bring that one on trips.

 

[linkster]

I probably would not purchase the last two adapters (TT30--->14-50, 5-15/20--->14-50) on your list from EVSE Adapters. IMHO, the 30A 115v will only be found at campgrounds and are 99% accompanied by a 14-50 and I am not totally convinced that our smart 14-50 is going to like one hot, one ground, and one neutral terminal when it is "looking" for two hots (being out of phase 180 degrees), one neutral, and one ground. The 5-15/20--->14-50 is really of no use to us since Tesla provides 5-15 adapter with every new car. Good-Luck

 

[liuping]

I probably would not purchase the last two adapters (TT30--->14-50, 5-15/20--->14-50) on your list from EVSE Adapters. IMHO, the 30A 115v will only be found at campgrounds and are 99% accompanied by a 14-50 and I am not totally convinced that our smart 14-50 is going to like one hot, one ground, and one neutral terminal when it is "looking" for two hots (being out of phase 180 degrees), one neutral, and one ground. The 5-15/20--->14-50 is really of no use to us since Tesla provides 5-15 adapter with every new car. Good-Luck

Thanks. The TT30 is the least likely to get used for sure. That one I ended up getting from Amazon for $18, so I can return it easily.

The 5-15/20 is mostly there so I can use the 14-50 extension cord, instead of also carrying a second 110v cord. Also, I did not think you could set 16 amp charging with the included 5-15 smart adapter. With the 5-20 to 14-50 I can.

 

[islandbayy]

The pre-manufactured TT-30 to 14-50 adapter will not work. The plug setup is not correct and the vehicle will either throw a error or not register voltage at all.

 

[liuping]

The pre-manufactured TT-30 to 14-50 adapter will not work. The plug setup is not correct and the vehicle will either throw a error or not register voltage at all.

Thanks. Good to know. It's was not an important adapter anyway.

 

[linkster]

Sorry to "split hairs" here since this really is about an awesome ski trip (skier here also). Yes, the included 5-15 Tesla adapter will only let you "pull" 12A which is the safe 80% continuos rule. The recently released 5-20 Tesla adapter can "pull" 16A from a 115v 20a receptacle (identifiable by sideways "T" neutral). As you know, you are limited to the "weakest link" of the entire circuit even though your S "knows" you are using a 14-50 and will try to draw 40a unless you tell it otherwise OR it has charged at that location before at which point it will remember that location and will duplicate the previous amp draw.

 

[liuping]

Sorry to "split hairs" here since this really is about an awesome ski trip (skier here also). Yes, the included 5-15 Tesla adapter will only let you "pull" 12A which is the safe 80% continuos rule. The recently released 5-20 Tesla adapter can "pull" 16A from a 115v 20a receptacle (identifiable by sideways "T" neutral). As you know, you are limited to the "weakest link" of the entire circuit even though your S "knows" you are using a 14-50 and will try to draw 40a unless you tell it otherwise OR it has charged at that location before at which point it will remember that location and will duplicate the previous amp draw.

I don't think you are splitting hairs, you are completely correct. 12A is max for 5-15 and 16A is max for 5-20 and you always needs to be award of the weakest link (bascially 80% of the rated amps)

I bought the 5-15/5-20 to 14-50 adapter instead of the Tesla's 5-20 adapter, only so I could use my extension cord (it's 6 gauge beast). It means having to dial in the correct amps since Telsa always sees 14-50, but that no big deal and it adds a lot of flexibility.

 

[Gizmotoy]

I don't think you are splitting hairs, you are completely correct. 12A is max for 5-15 and 16A is max for 5-20 and you always needs to be award of the weakest link (bascially 80% of the rated amps)

I bought the 5-15/5-20 to 14-50 adapter instead of the Tesla's 5-20 adapter, only so I could use my extension cord (it's 6 gauge beast). It means having to dial in the correct amps since Telsa always sees 14-50, but that no big deal and it adds a lot of flexibility.

Has that been working out well for you? I think I'm going to do the exact same thing. Get a thick 14-50 extension, a set of adapters, and carefully set the charge current in the car.

 

[liuping]

Has that been working out well for you? I think I'm going to do the exact same thing. Get a thick 14-50 extension, a set of adapters, and carefully set the charge current in the car.

I'll let you know after I get my car next month

I heard others have done it and it seems like a good idea and relatively cheap insurance.

Some people (mostly with shorter range EVs) carry a J1772 to 14-50 adaptor (http://modularevpower.com/UL_J1772_to_NEMA_14-50_Adapter_Box_Compact.htm) to avoid getting ICE'd, but I'll probably not go that far.

 

[Gizmotoy]

I'll let you know after I get my car next month

Ha. I should start reading people's signatures. :wink:

 

[Cottonwood]

I bought the 5-15/5-20 to 14-50 adapter instead of the Tesla's 5-20 adapter, only so I could use my extension cord (it's 6 gauge beast). It means having to dial in the correct amps since Telsa always sees 14-50, but that no big deal and it adds a lot of flexibility.

Be careful! If this is a 5-15/5-20 to 14-50 adapter made for the RV world, then it probably won't work; much like the TT-30 to 14-50 RV adapter won't work. In the RV world, the 50 Amp, 14-50 is wired as a split phase like your circuit breaker panel at home. RV's run some 120 V circuits off of one phase (Hot1 and Neutral) and some off of the other phase (Hot2 and Neutral); the 240V circuits are connected from Hot1 to Hot2 to get the full 240V. The Tesla UMC wants whatever voltage that you have across the two hots of the 14-50 and just ignores the 14-50 neutral. That is why the 6-50 works that has no neutral. In the RV world the TT-30, 5-15, etc 120V adapters to a 14-50 240V connect the 120 V neutral to the 14-50 neutral and the 120V Hot to both 14-50 Hots (1&2). With this connection in an RV, except for the current limitation, all the 120V circuits work and the 240V circuits have 0V. For the UMC, this is worthless, because it sees 0V across the hots and can't do any charging.

I used to work with a very wise engineer named Klein. We learned to appreciate a very conservative rule he created, known as Klein's Law, "If it hasn't been tested, it doesn't work!" Give all of your adapters, chargers, etc a test before you really need them, to make sure everything works as expected...

 

[liuping]

Be careful! If this is a 5-15/5-20 to 14-50 adapter made for the RV world, then it probably won't work;

Thanks for the warnings. The 5-15/5-20 to 14-50 was specifically made for Model S charging by EVSEadapters.com: Electric vehicle adapter cables, so it should not be a problem. All their adapters are specially wired for charging only, not for general use. I'll definitely test everything before any long road trip off the supercharger path.

 

[linkster]

Once again, I would "roll" with Cottonwood. IMHO, I would toss those two 115v--->230v adapters in the circular file and wouldn't let either one near my P85.

 

[Gizmotoy]

Once again, I would "roll" with Cottonwood. IMHO, I would toss those two adapters in the circular file and wouldn't let either one near my P85.

Plenty of users here have them. They work fine. Just set the current properly.