Slow Supercharging & Incomplete Charging

[m2140]

Looking for advise from the community and not to be bashed.
I've lost complete confidence in my Model S and need advise on what to do next.


I have a 2015 Model S 85D with Dual Chargers. It's been a very bumpy road with this car with tons of reliability issues. Almost everything has been fixed save for 1. Tesla continued to deny the car has a problem and will not let me bring it in to have it fixed. What can I do to get my car fixed?




Last year, around Dec 2016, at about 39,000 miles i noticed the car was not getting a full charge & Supercharger stops starting taking much longer. I had the car over a year at that point and taken it everywhere. I mainly bought this car to take long trips. I regularly went to places that have no charging infrastructure and require the full range of the car to get there & back to the nearest supercharger.

The issue i'm having only happened in cooler climate, at first 50 degrees or less but recently as warm as 70 degrees or less. Now I know that charging slows down in the cold. my first winter with the car, we took it to Clovis NM with 20 degree weather, we saw charging slow down to an extra 30 min for a full charge. Now i see at least an 1hr extra or a full charge.

Main Issue
- Slow Charging at Superchargers
- 80% charge takes 50 - 60min
- 100% charge takes 2 hrs or more
- I don't get a full charge, Charging completed between 96-99%

The charging not completed at 100% also happens at home & other public chargers. When set to 100% the car "completes" charging at 96-99%. I can only get a full charge in warm weather.​

Jan 2017 @ 39,600 miles - Tesla recalibrated the chargers
- Issue did not Clear

Feb 2017 @ 42,400 miles - Tesla Replaced the main Battery
- Issue did not Clear

Apr 2017 - brought in again, Tesla States, No problem found Car is functioning normal

Temperature warmed up (over 70s at night) & issue cleared
- We stopped using the car for long trips
- Charging set only to 90%
- Stopped using Superchargers

Dec 2017 - Issues reappears with cold Weather

Dec 2017 - 64,800 miles - took it in for this & other issues and Tesla once again states No problem found car is functioning normal

Jan 2018 - Request Lemon Law buyback after Tesla refuses to schedule appointment for issue & continue to state no problem found.

Feb 2018 - Lemon Law Buy Back denied by Tesla - States no Problem found, car functioning normal.

I once again, I perform a supercharger test, first in almost a year, going from 3% to 100%.
- Ambient Temp 64 degrees
- 80% took 50 min - Not sharing a charge with only 4 other cars charging in Temecula
- Charing completed at 97%
- Charging took 2 hr 1min



Tesla is the only option to get the car serviced. As it stands today, taking a long trip in the car would be a nightmare of a minimum of 1 hr stops. more if the Superchargers are over 100 miles apart.
What can i do next? If Tesla refuses to acknowledge there is a problem and won't work in it, how can i get the car back to normal?

 

[jaguar36]

There are a ton of things that can effect supercharger speed. One test is not going to be enough to prove or disprove anything. Temperature of the battery, ambient temperature, charger condition, and a host of other things can effect the time it takes to charge.

You've already gotten a replacement battery, I would assume that they've cleaned your contacts. There isn't much else that's involved with supercharging.

 

[toolioiep]

What do you consider to be normal?

I only ask as the SuperCharger time you mention ( 3 - 80% in 50 mins) seems about right to me.

Can you elaborate on what your concerns are?

 

[m2140]

What do you consider to be normal?

I only ask as the SuperCharger time you mention ( 3 - 80% in 50 mins) seems about right to me.

Can you elaborate on what your concerns are?

I normally got 80% in 30min, 45 min if it was under 40 degrees. Regardless of the start charge state, the car would adjust and 30 min stops were not a problem as long as I was not sharing a charge.

100% would take 1 hr to 1hr 10min normally and up to 1hr 30 min in really cold weather (40 degrees or less) . I would also get 100% charge.

Today, an attempt at a full charge always end at 96-99%, I cant get a full charge, and it takes 2 hrs or more. The longest I waited before giving up was 2hrs and 15 min.

 

[m2140]

There are a ton of things that can effect supercharger speed. One test is not going to be enough to prove or disprove anything. Temperature of the battery, ambient temperature, charger condition, and a host of other things can effect the time it takes to charge.

You've already gotten a replacement battery, I would assume that they've cleaned your contacts. There isn't much else that's involved with supercharging.

I agree, the problem is I consistently have to wait 2 hrs or more for a full charge & I cant get a full charge.
I've tried with a warm battery during a longer drive, cold battery and i always get the same results within 5 min.

Before this started happening, charging was consistent. The car would usually be correct on projections for charge completion. today on my last Supercharge attempt, the projection was 1hr and 20 min for a full charge. Actual took 2 hrs. Supercharger was not even half full and I was not sharing a charge the whole time.

 

[BerTX]

You seem to be very confrontational, and that is, no doubt, why you are getting unfavorable reactions from those involved. You lead off with not wanting us to "bash" you, then come back on the offensive when anyone tries to help.

I am pretty sure you are telling your side of the story and conveniently leaving out a few details. Tesla squelched your Lemon Law application by saying nothing was wrong with the car? If that worked, there would NEVER be a successful Lemon Law claim. Duh.

Anyway, have you tried balancing the battery?

 

[ucmndd]

I normally got 80% in 30min,

No you didn't.

~80% of an 85 kWh battery (minus the lockout portion, considering actual usable capacity of say ~80kWh) is something close to 64 kWh. Adding 64 kWh in 30 minutes means a sustained charge rate of 128kw for the entire duration of the charge session. You've never achieved that.

I suppose at least some of this has to do with what you mean by "80% charge". Do you mean getting the car to a state of charge of 80%? If so, the state of charge you're starting at is of course rather important to determine what's "fast" vs "slow".

If you mean "adding 80% of the total battery capacity" (e.g. starting at a state of charge of 5% and finishing at 85%), then as I said above, you never pulled that off in 30 minutes.

 

[Tam]

...1hr extra or a full charge...

Fast charge specs are more like marketing with optimal conditions and brand new battery and I don't think Tesla has a warranty on how fast your car can charge.

...I can only get a full charge in warm weather....

Again, listed marketing (not warranty) specs are for optimal conditions including warm ambient temperature so you can't expect "optimal" when it's cold weather.

As long as I get 100% charge in warm weather and it doesn't matter how long it takes as in your case, 2 hours, I wouldn't worry about it because under certain conditions, your battery can indeed get to 100%.

However, if in warm weather, your car cannot reach 100%, then I would get worry and have Service Center to fix it!

My understanding is your miles can be reduced but the 100% should be honored:

For example: 100% battery gauge at delivery was 265 and now with the same 100% gauge it's 257 rated miles...

It should not be: 100% at delivery with 265 rated miles and now its maximum is 97% at 257 miles.

If I am not wrong, the drifting in calculation should affect rated miles but your battery gauge should be able to display any where from 0% to 100% (I should not say "charging complete" at 97% when you set it at 100% in warm weather).

 

[m2140]

You seem to be very confrontational, and that is, no doubt, why you are getting unfavorable reactions from those involved. You lead off with not wanting us to "bash" you, then come back on the offensive when anyone tries to help.

I am pretty sure you are telling your side of the story and conveniently leaving out a few details. Tesla squelched your Lemon Law application by saying nothing was wrong with the car? If that worked, there would NEVER be a successful Lemon Law claim. Duh.

Anyway, have you tried balancing the battery?

I'm not aware of a manual process to balance the battery. Can you direct me to where I can find it or how to do it?

I've read that the car does automatically balance the battery as needed. The behavior i'm seeing is as if the car is perpetually stuck trying to balance the battery. It would explain the slower charge & the incomplete charge. I have brought this up to the Tesla Service team and unfortunately they were not even aware of the process. I asked they check with engineering but again, nothing came of it.



Last time I asked for help on this matter i got bashed hard on this board. That is the reason for the note.I'm looking for options on what to do next because I cannot rely on the car anymore. I'm limited to a 100 mile radius from my house with this car to avoid long Supercharger stops.

As for your comment about Lemon Law, I checked with a lawyer and the law is clear that repair attempt have to be made. If Tesla does not attempt to fix and states working normal, it's a hard case to fight and most Lemon Law lawyers don't take them. At that point it's a Dealer service issue witch falls under different consumer laws. right now I have 4 dealer visit for the same thing and in 2 of them they said nothing wrong. I would have more visit, but they won't let me come in for this one issue and actually canceled an appointment I made. I'm told they will work on it remotely, but it takes a week or more for a response from engineering.

If this happened with a regular car, you can just as easily go to another dealer. With Tesla all the service centers are connected, they all have access to same notes as the last service center and they all get their guidance from the same engineering team

 

[m2140]

No you didn't.

~80% of an 85 kWh battery (minus the lockout portion, considering actual usable capacity of say ~80kWh) is something close to 64 kWh. Adding 64 kWh in 30 minutes means a sustained charge rate of 128kw for the entire duration of the charge session. You've never achieved that.

I suppose at least some of this has to do with what you mean by "80% charge". Do you mean getting the car to a state of charge of 80%? If so, the state of charge you're starting at is of course rather important to determine what's "fast" vs "slow".

If you mean "adding 80% of the total battery capacity" (e.g. starting at a state of charge of 5% and finishing at 85%), then as I said above, you never pulled that off in 30 minutes.

I mean getting to an 80% state of charge.

Usually it did not matter to the current state of charge, The car would adjust and start with a high kw rate and slowly taper down the closer I got to 80%. I would regularly get 30 min supercharger stops to 80% no problem in warm weather. Again, as long as I was not sharing a charge.

 

[m2140]

Fast charge specs are more like marketing with optimal conditions and brand new battery and I don't think Tesla has a warranty on how fast your car can charge.



Again, listed marketing (not warranty) specs are for optimal conditions including warm ambient temperature so you can't expect "optimal" when it's cold weather.

As long as I get 100% charge in warm weather and it doesn't matter how long it takes as in your case, 2 hours, I wouldn't worry about it because under certain conditions, your battery can indeed get to 100%.

However, if in warm weather, your car cannot reach 100%, then I would get worry and have Service Center to fix it!

My understanding is your miles can be reduced but the 100% should be honored:

For example: 100% battery gauge at delivery was 265 and now with the same 100% gauge it's 257 rated miles...

It should not be: 100% at delivery with 265 rated miles and now its maximum is 97% at 257 miles.

If I am not wrong, the drifting in calculation should affect rated miles but your battery gauge should be able to display any where from 0% to 100% (I should not say "charging complete" at 97% when you set it at 100% in warm weather).

God I hope you are not right about the warranty on charging rates. To me the charging times advertised is what makes the car a viable replacement to gas cars. For the first year I experienced the advertised charging times.


But yeah, you are correct about range. I try not to focus on the range and only on the battery state of charge. I completely understand that 100% with a new battery will have a very different range when at 60k miles. the current battery has about 27K miles on it and seeing the same issues as the original battery. Since this issues popped up, I have no tested the range of the car, nor do I want to due to the long stop I would have to do or potentially risk getting stranded.

 

[daxz]

@Bjorn had a video with the slow supercharging problem in his X - #10 in his summary of issues (Time at 10:10)
He had a work around but he doesn't state if it was ever fixed.
I remember another video when he was demonstrating this but I wasn't able to find it.

In his S he had video on unbalanced cells - he talks about it stopping before 100%

 

[ucmndd]

I mean getting to an 80% state of charge.

Usually it did not matter to the current state of charge, The car would adjust and start with a high kw rate and slowly taper down the closer I got to 80%. I would regularly get 30 min supercharger stops to 80% no problem in warm weather. Again, as long as I was not sharing a charge.

So, the problem here is that you're talking in generalities like "fast" and "slow" and not providing any sort of objective measurement to quantify things.

What you've basically said is that in your opinion, the amount of time it takes to add a variable and arbitrary amount of energy to your car to reach an 80% state of charge has become slower over time.

That's not particularly helpful.

What is your peak charging rate in kilowatts at various states of charge and how has that changed over time?
What is the rate your pack is charging at in kilowatts as it approaches the 80% threshold you seem concerned with, and how has that changed over time?
What are some actual examples of your "slow" experiences that include initial state of charge, final state of charge, peak charging rate observed during the session, and time elapsed?

Those are the sorts of things that can actually quantify a defect or not.

 

[Tam]

..."fast" and "slow"...

I don't blame m2140 for complaining about the supercharging rate because Tesla used to broadcast through many press media and its own website that it can provide "half a charge in as little as 20 minutes".

Its website used to have the graph that you would get 80% in 40 minutes:

Those records might work in the lab in perfect conditions but they are a very high bar to match in real life!

It's good that Tesla has taken down all those claims from its current website but m2140 has already heard those claims, read those claims and saw those claims.

The graph says 100% in 75 minutes but m2140 spent 135 minutes (2:15) and then gave up because it's still not at 100% as graphed!

Owner m2140's complaint of slow supercharging rate that is much below to what communicated from Tesla's advertisement/education/public news is legitimate and I do not doubt that at all!

 

[m2140]

So, the problem here is that you're talking in generalities like "fast" and "slow" and not providing any sort of objective measurement to quantify things.

What you've basically said is that in your opinion, the amount of time it takes to add a variable and arbitrary amount of energy to your car to reach an 80% state of charge has become slower over time.

That's not particularly helpful.

What is your peak charging rate in kilowatts at various states of charge and how has that changed over time?
What is the rate your pack is charging at in kilowatts as it approaches the 80% threshold you seem concerned with, and how has that changed over time?
What are some actual examples of your "slow" experiences that include initial state of charge, final state of charge, peak charging rate observed during the session, and time elapsed?

Those are the sorts of things that can actually quantify a defect or not.

Most of that stuff around the KW tends to go over my head. My complaint was that the car charged a certain time the first year of ownership and it has slowed down substantially the 2nd year and 3rd year, even with a new battery.

I created a graph to track all the charging attempts that resulted in slow charging or incomplete charging. I usually recorded the Start Charge state, ambient tempts, and final charge state. The times were important for Tesla to review the logs.

So after the last exchange with Tesla I created a time lapsed video of a charging attempt. Started at 3% and completed at 97% 2hrs and 1 min later. Starting Charge rate was 113kw. At 80% it was getting 36Kw. Charge completed at 97%.

 

[m2140]

I don't blame m2140 for complaining about the supercharging rate because Tesla used to broadcast through many press media and its own website that it can provide "half a charge in as little as 20 minutes".

Its website used to have the graph that you would get 80% in 40 minutes:

Those records might work in the lab in perfect conditions but they are a very high bar to match in real life!

It's good that Tesla has taken down all those claims from its current website but m2140 has already heard those claims, read those claims and saw those claims.

The graph says 100% in 75 minutes but m2140 spent 135 minutes (2:15) and then gave up because it's still not at 100% as graphed!

Owner m2140's complaint of slow supercharging rate that is much below to what communicated from Tesla's advertisement/education/public news is legitimate and I do not doubt that at all!

Thanks for the info here. Very good stuff.

 

[kingjamez]

So after the last exchange with Tesla I created a time lapsed video of a charging attempt. Started at 3% and completed at 97% 2hrs and 1 min later. Starting Charge rate was 113kw. At 80% it was getting 36Kw. Charge completed at 97%.

When you charge it normally at home, and set it to 100%, what does it stop at?
-Jim

 

[thefortunes]

Most of that stuff around the KW tends to go over my head. My complaint was that the car charged a certain time the first year of ownership and it has slowed down substantially the 2nd year and 3rd year, even with a new battery.

I created a graph to track all the charging attempts that resulted in slow charging or incomplete charging. I usually recorded the Start Charge state, ambient tempts, and final charge state. The times were important for Tesla to review the logs.

So after the last exchange with Tesla I created a time lapsed video of a charging attempt. Started at 3% and completed at 97% 2hrs and 1 min later. Starting Charge rate was 113kw. At 80% it was getting 36Kw. Charge completed at 97%.

The rates you quoted above (116kW at 3% and 36kW at 80%) are appropriate for an 85kWh car. Have you compared other SoC and charge rate points in the video to a reasonableness test of 120kW rate less SoC = charge rate?

 

[m2140]

So I finally got a decent response from the Service Manager.

They are going to pickup the car this week and check out the cooling system and any other possible system in the car that could be causing the slow charging & the battery not topping off.

BUT, he did share with me that Tesla puts no warranty on 100% charge or Charge Rates at superchargers.

100% Charge - As he explained it, the state of charge is an average of all the bricks in the battery. You can never get a full 100% on every single brick, which i knew. They tell me, even though I'm not showing a 100% state of charge, logs show i'm still getting the same charge and range.

Not sure if that is true or not because i'm not risking being stranded trying out the full range. In a recent drive to the service center i saw a 15% less battery charge when i got home than i normally get in the same round trip so I'm very skeptical. I must have several bricks not charging correctly or something.
​

Charge Rates at Superchargers - Again as he explained it, there are too many variables that affect charging and they don't guarantee charging at all. So if it takes 2 hrs, 3 hrs or what ever, Tesla will always consider the car is working as normal.



The service center is going to check out the battery cooling system to see if maybe the car is not properly cooling the batteries or something like that is causing the issue with charging Or maybe there is a system putting too much draw on the battery during charging slowing things down & not allowing the cells to be topped off. They agree that 2hr supercharger stops and not getting a 100% state of charge are a problem, but from a Company standpoint there is no warranty on either and engineering will continue to state working as normal and they don't have any obligation to fix or dig deeper.

kind of scary when you think about it. We have all experienced slow supercharging at some point, but not consistently. Mine consistently charges slow and consistently does not top off the battery. If the Service centers weren't so good, I would be screwed with no options owning a car that only worked as advertised for the first year of ownership.

 

[thefortunes]

So I finally got a decent response from the Service Manager.

They are going to pickup the car this week and check out the cooling system and any other possible system in the car that could be causing the slow charging & the battery not topping off.

BUT, he did share with me that Tesla puts no warranty on 100% charge or Charge Rates at superchargers.

100% Charge - As he explained it, the state of charge is an average of all the bricks in the battery. You can never get a full 100% on every single brick, which i knew. They tell me, even though I'm not showing a 100% state of charge, logs show i'm still getting the same charge and range.

Not sure if that is true or not because i'm not risking being stranded trying out the full range. In a recent drive to the service center i saw a 15% less battery charge when i got home than i normally get in the same round trip so I'm very skeptical. I must have several bricks not charging correctly or something.
​

Charge Rates at Superchargers - Again as he explained it, there are too many variables that affect charging and they don't guarantee charging at all. So if it takes 2 hrs, 3 hrs or what ever, Tesla will always consider the car is working as normal.



The service center is going to check out the battery cooling system to see if maybe the car is not properly cooling the batteries or something like that is causing the issue with charging Or maybe there is a system putting too much draw on the battery during charging slowing things down & not allowing the cells to be topped off. They agree that 2hr supercharger stops and not getting a 100% state of charge are a problem, but from a Company standpoint there is no warranty on either and engineering will continue to state working as normal and they don't have any obligation to fix or dig deeper.

kind of scary when you think about it. We have all experienced slow supercharging at some point, but not consistently. Mine consistently charges slow and consistently does not top off the battery. If the Service centers weren't so good, I would be screwed with no options owning a car that only worked as advertised for the first year of ownership.

I'm glad that they are going to look at it, but you need to educate yourself about charging rates and then apply that knowledge to your charges. See my post above this one - the rates you have quoted are right where they should be.