Snow driving - Traction Control over-aggressive!!

[GtiMart]

Electric dream, track mode isn't available on rwd and awd so that's a non starter. I also have new Pirelli Sottozero 3s, 1000km on them so that's not an issue either. As for backing the power or straightening the steering... I'm already going very slow, like 10-15km/h (max 10mph) around a corner. I need to turn the 90 degrees of the corner, I can't turn less. Going any slower and I'm stopped. My Wrx and my awd Golf both are better in those situations than my $65k CAD Tesla which is a bummer. Slip start is indeed marginally better but needs to be reactivated every time and is buried in the menus.
I understand Tesla doesn't want to bring track mode to all cars, and it might be overly aggressive (dangerous) to normal driving. Why not add another option that loosens the granny mode a bit?

 

[GtiMart]

Bottom of the pile euro-winter tire. There are A/S tires that would have more grip on ice/snow.
That's your problem.

Understeering on low-grip isn't traction control issue. If you're plowing, having no TC will just let you swing the rear end around, but that won't stop your overall trajectory.

I understand what you mean. Still, a bit of slip in the back wheels while turning would help the car rotate. I'm not asking for a 360 spin

 

[thatgeekinit]

I got Toyo Observe Garit KX.

My big issue tended to be in the slush going uphill on that endless ascent curve towards the Eisenhower tunnel. I definitely spun a bit towards the left and had to hit SlipStart a few times when I could not get traction to start moving. Traffic sucks.

 

[Dangerous Fish]

Electric dream, track mode isn't available on rwd and awd so that's a non starter. I also have new Pirelli Sottozero 3s, 1000km on them so that's not an issue either. As for backing the power or straightening the steering... I'm already going very slow, like 10-15km/h (max 10mph) around a corner. I need to turn the 90 degrees of the corner, I can't turn less. Going any slower and I'm stopped. My Wrx and my awd Golf both are better in those situations than my $65k CAD Tesla which is a bummer. Slip start is indeed marginally better but needs to be reactivated every time and is buried in the menus.
I understand Tesla doesn't want to bring track mode to all cars, and it might be overly aggressive (dangerous) to normal driving. Why not add another option that loosens the granny mode a bit?

I know, I was talking generally. All the Model 3s suffer from terminal understeer in low grip conditions if you have sub-optimal tyres and apply too much throttle and too much steering input. Regardless of how slow you are going to begin with, you can recover grip and traction by being economical with your inputs.

I can tell you for sure that better tyres and less throttle/steering input is the answer. I know because I've tested it.

I also agree with the above post about the Kumhos. There are better winter tyres available for snow.

 

[afeudale]

Bottom of the pile euro-winter tire. There are A/S tires that would have more grip on ice/snow.
That's your problem.

Understeering on low-grip isn't traction control issue. If you're plowing, having no TC will just let you swing the rear end around, but that won't stop your overall trajectory.

Really? I thought Kumho's were half-decent...and also thought they should be at least better than the stock A/S tires in the cold & snow.

It doesn't make sense - isn't it required that the rubber on winter-rated tires need to stay pliable below 7C, whereas A/S tires turn more brittle as it gets colder?

In any case, my BMW 6-series, RWD has *summer* tires on it and I took it out in the snow a few months back and it was waaaay better than the M3 in terms of cornering. I'm confident something is up here other than just the tires.

 

[afeudale]

Electric dream, track mode isn't available on rwd and awd so that's a non starter. I also have new Pirelli Sottozero 3s, 1000km on them so that's not an issue either. As for backing the power or straightening the steering... I'm already going very slow, like 10-15km/h (max 10mph) around a corner. I need to turn the 90 degrees of the corner, I can't turn less. Going any slower and I'm stopped. My Wrx and my awd Golf both are better in those situations than my $65k CAD Tesla which is a bummer. Slip start is indeed marginally better but needs to be reactivated every time and is buried in the menus.
I understand Tesla doesn't want to bring track mode to all cars, and it might be overly aggressive (dangerous) to normal driving. Why not add another option that loosens the granny mode a bit?

Agreed. It's not even about granny-mode...it seems broken (and definitely dangerous) with this type of behaviour. I can't believe people have been putting up with this...

 

[coolmanfever]

Hey Afeudale,

As I just finished creating my post, I saw your post.
Car did not move forward when flooring down the power without/with slip start. What was the reason?

It seems that we had similar problem with traction control system when there is heavy pile of snow on ground. I was driving under chill model and low regen. My car is 2020 SR+ rwd and brand new nokian r3 winter tires, and I struggled to move forward for good 15 min. I felt embarrassed while other model 3 cars bypassing me. I was questioning myself whether I am a bad rwd driver in snow or is just the glitch of traction electronic.

 

[afeudale]

Hey Afeudale,

As I just finished creating my post, I saw your post.
Car did not move forward when flooring down the power without/with slip start. What was the reason?

It seems that we had similar problem with traction control system when there is heavy pile of snow on ground. I was driving under chill model and low regen. My car is 2020 SR+ rwd and brand new nokian r3 winter tires, and I struggled to move forward for good 15 min. I felt embarrassed while other model 3 cars bypassing me. I was questioning myself whether I am a bad rwd driver in snow or is just the glitch of traction electronic.

Hey coolmanfever! Ok, whew, so I'm not crazy then

I wonder if there's some problem with the 2020 SR+'s in that case?

Any advice from TMC on how to best get Tesla on this? I really don't want this experience to sour me on this car

 

[coolmanfever]

I am going to text Tesla service to inquire about this issue tomorrow. Hopefully find some answer from them.

 

[dsgerbc]

Really? I thought Kumho's were half-decent...and also thought they should be at least better than the stock A/S tires in the cold & snow.

Here's a respectable German test.

In general, Euro-winter tires are just a notch better than all-seasons, with poor examples of euro-winters being sub-par to top all-seasons.

It doesn't make sense - isn't it required that the rubber on winter-rated tires need to stay pliable below 7C, whereas A/S tires turn more brittle as it gets colder?

That's a marketing myth. Nothing magically becomes more brittle at 7c. And tire temps are way higher than ambient when you drive.

In any case, my BMW 6-series, RWD has *summer* tires on it and I took it out in the snow a few months back and it was waaaay better than the M3 in terms of cornering. I'm confident something is up here other than just the tires.

Unless you test in the same weather, that comparison doesn't mean much. That said, BMW is probably around 52/48 f/r weight distribution, while a RWD Model 3 is probably 48/52. That's not much, it could matter some in low-grip situations for front grip.

 

[afeudale]

I am going to text Tesla service to inquire about this issue tomorrow. Hopefully find some answer from them.

Awesome...can you please post here whatever they say? Thanks in advance!

 

[afeudale]

Here's a respectable German test.

In general, Euro-winter tires are just a notch better than all-seasons, with poor examples of euro-winters being sub-par to top all-seasons.


That's a marketing myth. Nothing magically becomes more brittle at 7c. And tire temps are way higher than ambient when you drive.



Unless you test in the same weather, that comparison doesn't mean much. That said, BMW is probably around 52/48 f/r weight distribution, while a RWD Model 3 is probably 48/52. That's not much, it could matter some in low-grip situations for front grip.

Thanks for the feedback dsgerbc!

To be fair, that tire test you linked looks more skewed because of the way some of the graphs look. But when compared to the summer tire control, you can see that even the Kumho is exponentially better in something like braking distance.

Also, I have the RP72's which I assume are newer and possibly better than the RP71's (or not...lol)

The weather when I drove my BMW was almost exactly the same - both temperature and snowfall.

I know you're trying to defend the M3 here and possibly even with good reason based on your own experiences - but I'm telling you, the issue that I and coolmanfever are experiencing is *not* normal. It is also not related to tires, weather conditions, weight distribution, etc.

I've lived in Toronto my whole life and in that time have had about 20 cars - all manual transmission and most RWD - so I would say I'm quite the seasoned driver. I've never had such a weird startup/acceleration around corners as I did yesterday in the M3 - not even close.

 

[dsgerbc]

but I'm telling you, the issue that I and coolmanfever are experiencing is *not* normal. It is also not related to tires, weather conditions, weight distribution, etc.

Use the 'report bug' feature then. You can try finding a corner in some private parking lot and trying to replicate it. And then try to take the same corner shifting to neutral. If the latter goes a lot better then maybe there is an issue.

But I find it hard to believe that the case of front end refusing to turn can be traction-control related. I agree that traction control is pretty aggressive. It's pretty decent in the dry allowing to extract plenty of traction, but it's not well-suited for slippery surfaces. I wouldn't mind it at all if there was an intermediate mode between the default and track mode that would allow some slip.

But even with a less aggressive TC, a RWD car with an open diff and only software-LSD will tend to barely get moving in anything more than a dusting.

 

[afeudale]

Use the 'report bug' feature then. You can try finding a corner in some private parking lot and trying to replicate it. And then try to take the same corner shifting to neutral. If the latter goes a lot better then maybe there is an issue.

But I find it hard to believe that the case of front end refusing to turn can be traction-control related. I agree that traction control is pretty aggressive. It's pretty decent in the dry allowing to extract plenty of traction, but it's not well-suited for slippery surfaces. I wouldn't mind it at all if there was an intermediate mode between the default and track mode that would allow some slip.

But even with a less aggressive TC, a RWD car with an open diff and only software-LSD will tend to barely get moving in anything more than a dusting.

Thanks - good idea! Will try the bug report feature in a parking lot. But of course, I probably won't be able to replicate it now...

Oh no, my BMW was awesome in the snow a couple months back - even with the summer tires and TC fully enabled. I was quite surprised! It was while waiting for the M3 to arrive and we got an early winter. I was freaking out thinking I would be stuck not able to drive at all...but I risked it with the Bimmer and all was fine

 

[holmgang]

That's a marketing myth. Nothing magically becomes more brittle at 7c. And tire temps are way higher than ambient when you drive.

There's nothing magical about 7c specifically, but the behavior of tires aren't linear across temperatures, so the transition in compounding is engineered for an inflection around something more like 5*C

to add another opinion to the thread, i dont have an issue of the traction control being too aggressive in the snow - preventing fun long drifts - but i have an issue of starting from a stop.

roads here have elevation changes. so when the corners are frosty or icy; or gravelly (but without ice to dig into); combined with the elevation, it is exceedingly easy to break the rear end with tiny jab of the throttle. it makes small slides and is a small bit of fun, but usually im just trying to get around safely.

the issue is in *very* slippery conditions, the car is mostly rear wheel driven, and the front end isnt helping claw the car forward. doesnt happen most of the time on trafficked roads, but higher up there are iced-over parking lots and driveways and etc. having the front wheels kick in would be nice.

 

[joelliot]

...so last year everyone was complaining that the traction control was awful and allowed the car to drift a slight bit. I haven't had my car out in the snow this year, snow days where days I didn't need to go anywhere, but it sounds like some adjustments where made.

This may be another case where Tesla cannot win. There is no setting that everyone would be happy with. Perhaps, we will end up with a slider in the UI where we can go between grandpa mode and track mode, then everyone can pick their preference.

 

[dsgerbc]

There's nothing magical about 7c specifically, but the behavior of tires aren't linear across temperatures, so the transition in compounding is engineered for an inflection around something more like 5*C

I know that video. I'd highly recommend watching it to everyone. It does not say anything specific about 5c, and certainly nothing about compound engineering. All they showed is that when it's wet and coldish, you want decent tread depth to evacuate water (but not too many sipes in the tread). And when it's dry and cold, summer tires are still king. And they never got back to me whether they warmed up their summer tires at all. Cause if they didn't, their results maybe skewed in favor of A/S or eurowinter tires in the wet. There was no winter compound test there, cause it's impossible to separate it from the tread design test. With weather in the 30s all of those compounds are pliable enough (except for track-day summer tires), so most grip variations are likely from the tread design. When you get to temps like 0F is where you'd get major benefits from pliable rubber.

 

[holmgang]

I know that video. I'd highly recommend watching it to everyone. It does not say anything specific about 5c, and certainly nothing about compound engineering. All they showed is that when it's wet and coldish, you want decent tread depth to evacuate water (but not too many sipes in the tread). And when it's dry and cold, summer tires are still king. And they never got back to me whether they warmed up their summer tires at all. Cause if they didn't, their results maybe skewed in favor of A/S or eurowinter tires in the wet. There was no winter compound test there, cause it's impossible to separate it from the tread design test. With weather in the 30s all of those compounds are pliable enough (except for track-day summer tires), so most grip variations are likely from the tread design. When you get to temps like 0F is where you'd get major benefits from pliable rubber.

The video discussing particulars of compound differences would be missing the point, as most people don't speak chemistry. What people can relate to, are the class of tires and conditions.

Braking in the dry might be a first-order effect of the tread design, as you see a slight and gradual decline in performance of the summer-bias tires. But the winter tires show a strong inflection around the 5c mark and substantial improvement to 0c, basically matching the summers, so clearly there must be something activated in its rubber.

Even more important is the fact that 0*C is associated with worse conditions. So if it's cold but always dry you might be fine with summers. But if there's any precipitation around mixed with that cold, then you'll be in a bad spot.

As to the actual tire temperature, I get that tires warm up with use. But again, when the ambient temperature is in the cold regime, it is likely the conditions are equally bad that you'll won't drive fast enough, corner hard enough, and brake hard enough to put substantial temperature into the summer tires (to bring them above whatever magical threshold they need to be at).

 

[dsgerbc]

The video discussing particulars of compound differences would be missing the point, as most people don't speak chemistry. What people can relate to, are the class of tires and conditions.

Sure.

As a result of BS marketing a ton of people think that there's a magic 7-8c mark below which any winter tire rules, and that with winter tires they can take corners just as hard as in the summer and tailgate just as badly on nordic winter tires on a dry highway.

What people need to know that the 7c or whatever threshold marketed as a changeover temp based on winter rubber softness is BS. If you're in Arizona etc and it's above freezing+dry there's zero reason to switch from summer tires. If you're in the UK and it rains every day and it's above freezing you want non-winter tread with lots of depth left. It's all very climate-specific.

What's relevant to most people in these forums is that Nordic winter tires (Your Xi3s, Conti 7s, Hakka R3s etc) SUCK in dry/wet braking if it's above freezing by more than a few degrees. And that there is less grip to be had when it's cold regardless of tires. Those tires are great for conditions like OP is describing, when there's deeper snow or ice under it. But everywhere else they give up a lot.

P.S. My personal bet is that properly warmed up summer tires *of equal tread depth* would be superior in the wet to all-seasons/mild winter tires down to 2-3C, but I doubt we'd ever see a test like that.

 

[GtiMart]

Some cars have a selector to indicate on which surface you're driving: tarmac, gravel, snow. This probably changes the traction and stability control settings. Our cars have cameras that could auto detect it otherwise please give me those settings or a slider or middle setting as others have suggested.

How do we go about getting such a change? Is anyone friends with Elon?

It seems the Tesla engineers and test drivers should come up north to have a session in the snow.