So, how does the Model 3 drive vs the Bolt?

[Esme Es Mejor]

I read that GM loses $9,000 on every Bolt sold, and it is mostly a compliance car to allow for other, more profitable, ICE cars to be sold.

Tesla has priced their Model 3 to provide significant profits to the long term success of the company, and yet still provides a superior car.

Also hard to not consider the value of the extensive SuperCharger network to allow for long distance travel.

As far as I can tell, GM earns 3.3 ZEV credits for each Bolt they sell, which is worth more than $16k in fines avoided. So even if they nominally lose $9k on each Bolt they sell, they actually come out ahead financially. There are also harder-to-quantify benefits like improved fuel economy numbers for their entire fleet.

 

[seattlite2004]

How does cabin noise compare to an ICE car?

Forum member's opinion: Suspension

 

[McHoffa]

bolt has several positive aspects over the model 3.

Lower maintenance costs.
Android Auto.
Cheaper than model 3.
I'm going to guess more headroom too but I could be wrong.
It can provide your phone with a wifi connection.
You can buy one now!
Easier to get to the dealer for any issues.
Better camera system for parking. (I think?)
Better rear visibility because of the cool mirror that is also a screen on the premier.
The Software UI was kinda crappy however there are physical buttons for many things and a traditional speedometer etc in addition to the screen so that's a plus for me since I'm not a fan of using a touchscreen while driving.
Many people will still get a 10k tax credit on the bolt long after it's gone for the M3.
Bolt has a bigger battery and range, than a cost comparable model 3.
Option to Lease.

Maybe easier to trade in your car?
Not sure how the sound systems compare?

But I mean I decided to wait it out for the M3 but I was going to buy a bolt at one point if the tax credit went away.

$37,495 base price (which doesn’t even include DC “fast” charging) vs $35,000 base price for Model 3
Loaded Bolt is $44k, which would be the same price as a long range Model 3 without premium upgrade OR a standard Model 3 with premium AND Autopilot!

Better camera on the Bolt? maybe... but screen angled and matte finish that creates a glare in certain lighting that makes the rear view camera useless

GM will likely also hit 200k cars sold in Q2 of this year so probably both losing the tax credit at the same time

Have you used that rear view mirror camera? It doesn’t even fill up the whole mirror, which is already a small mirror. I didn’t measure but I’d guess the measurable screen is 5” x 1.5”. I couldn’t use it while I drove it because it was so different from an actual reflection. I was excited about that feature but in reality it ended up feeling like a gimmick.

Apple CarPlay is a nice feature but I’d rather have the giant beautiful Model 3 UI

Headroom is about the same but the Model 3 is 100x more comfortable

 

[JohnSnowNW]

As far as I can tell, GM earns 3.3 ZEV credits for each Bolt they sell, which is worth more than $16k in fines avoided. So even if they nominally lose $9k on each Bolt they sell, they actually come out ahead financially. There are also harder-to-quantify benefits like improved fuel economy numbers for their entire fleet.

They only earn ZEV credits in "CARB" states.

 

[Glamisduner]

$37,495 base price (which doesn’t even include DC “fast” charging) vs $35,000 base price for Model 3
Loaded Bolt is $44k, which would be the same price as a long range Model 3 without premium upgrade OR a standard Model 3 with premium AND Autopilot!

Better camera on the Bolt? maybe... but screen angled and matte finish that creates a glare in certain lighting that makes the rear view camera useless

GM will likely also hit 200k cars sold in Q2 of this year so probably both losing the tax credit at the same time

Have you used that rear view mirror camera? It doesn’t even fill up the whole mirror, which is already a small mirror. I didn’t measure but I’d guess the measurable screen is 5” x 1.5”. I couldn’t use it while I drove it because it was so different from an actual reflection. I was excited about that feature but in reality it ended up feeling like a gimmick.

Apple CarPlay is a nice feature but I’d rather have the giant beautiful Model 3 UI

Headroom is about the same but the Model 3 is 100x more comfortable

Yea but no one buys a bolt at MSRP, they usually at 4k less but you can get them cheaper than that, there are hidden costs on the tesla too. Want a color other than black $1000, delivery charge $1000. So looking at base price minus another 6k or 5.5k if you want DC fast charging, then it's still considerably cheaper. My price on a loaded bolt with ALL of the packages was 39,xxx when I was looking. So yes the bolt is cheaper and targets more of the average car market.

 

[smartypnz]

Ya didn't mention delivery charge for the Bolt. Also - is GPS included? Still... that race from SF to LA and back is already in the bag - let alone cross the country.

 

[TaoJones]

Unless and until the CCS network is built out across the continent, the Bolt is and will remain a local car and as such competes only with the rest of the pack. Even the longer-range Leaf has a leg up (via Chademo chargers) until CCS catches up.

There is a spiffy new CCS forecast map floating around but as Tesla owners, we all have experience with such forecast maps *polite cough*.

Even if every GM stealership on the continent had a CCS charger, they would typically NOT be available after hours, which in many states means on Sundays either, and single installs are just not a robust solution. The pending Baker install aside.

I can't take the Bolt seriously primarily for that reason (it's a car without an established and scalable infrastructure *as yet*), and because it is so obviously a compliance car.

That, and it looks like a badly-designed sneaker second only perhaps to the i3. Even the Fiat 500e and eGolf look better. But again - *all* of those for the time being are local chariots only.

 

[McHoffa]

Yea but no one buys a bolt at MSRP, they usually at 4k less but you can get them cheaper than that, there are hidden costs on the tesla too. Want a color other than black $1000, delivery charge $1000. So looking at base price minus another 6k or 5.5k if you want DC fast charging, then it's still considerably cheaper. My price on a loaded bolt with ALL of the packages was 39,xxx when I was looking. So yes the bolt is cheaper and targets more of the average car market.

Bolt also has destination charge. Every car does.

$39k loaded is still really expensive compared to a $41k standard battery Model 3 with premium upgrade package and paint upgrade. No comparison. Not even close.

 

[McRat]

Not all companies advertise their MSRP with the dest included. GM normally does, but most MFRs don't.

The Bolt drives like a well built FWD sedan, except with a higher seating position. Great visibility.
Needs more tire. First thing I'd do would be put 7.5" wide rims and 235 tires.
200HP FWD without LSD yet spins both tires. But it does it wrong. Using brakes to mimic LSD is lame. AFAIK all EVs operate that way currently.
But even with fake LSD, there is very little torque steer, and it's very well mannered when floored.
If you get too aggressive in a tight corner, it turns down the torque on the corner exits even with the babysitters OFF. I think that's the fake LSD that is responsible.

It's very forgiving, and fun to buzz around in.

The Model 3? I do not know. When I get it, I will report what it's capable of.

 

[McRat]

PS - The price on the Bolts actually went up. At one point, you could get $6k off sticker. Now it's down to about $3k.
Oddly enough, the 2018 is not in production yet. Inventory levels are only about 4 weeks worth now.

 

[McHoffa]

PS - The price on the Bolts actually went up. At one point, you could get $6k off sticker. Now it's down to about $3k.
Oddly enough, the 2018 is not in production yet. Inventory levels are only about 4 weeks worth now.

Apparently not many people want to pay $40k for a $20k car

 

[McRat]

Apparently not many people want to pay $40k for a $20k car

It works wonders for Lexus, BMW, Audi, and Mercedes. The owners always make me chuckle. They think gluing a badge on a POS makes it fashionable.

In any case, if you don't qualify for the $7500 credit for an EV you aren't in a financial position to be shopping for one.

The minimum price after all discounts and incentives for new Model 3LR is $40,000 in CA. It's $24,495 for a Bolt. So 63% more money. Different demographic.

 

[McHoffa]

It works wonders for Lexus, BMW, Audi, and Mercedes. The owners always make me chuckle. They think gluing a badge on a POS makes it fashionable.

In any case, if you don't qualify for the $7500 credit for an EV you aren't in a financial position to be shopping for one.

The minimum price after all discounts and incentives for new Model 3LR is $40,000 in CA. It's $24,495 for a Bolt. So 63% more money. Different demographic.

Price difference before incentives of a loaded Bolt vs LR Model 3 with PUP is only $5k. Where are you getting $15k difference? Base Bolt costs more than the soon to be available base Model 3. They’re definitely in the same demographic if you’re only comparing price.

 

[McRat]

Price difference before incentives of a loaded Bolt vs LR Model 3 with PUP is only $5k. Where are you getting $15k difference? Base Bolt costs more than the soon to be available base Model 3. They’re definitely in the same demographic if you’re only comparing price.

White stripped Bolt with DCFC is $35,008 including destination, not including Costco, GM Card, Farm Bureau discounts.
White loaded Bolt is $40,178 not including Costco, GM Card, Farm Bureau discounts.

GM themselves put $2017 on the hood. Dealers rolled back their discounts because they are getting hard to find.

I'm positive my Model 3LR will be more than any non-Tesla EV sold today. Because I hate black as a car color, and I like ACC. Trying to make a car hotter in the summer and less visible at night just seems odd to me. So it will be $56,000 before incentives.

If I wanted a Bolt I'd walk in and grab one. $40k is chump change for a car today. $56k won't even get you a decent pickup.

 

[bro1999]

For those quoting that "$9k loss" figure on every Bolt sold, UBS did a teardown of a Bolt that somehow leaked out, and they found that the Bolt costs about $33k for GM to build, with $10-12k for battery costs alone. MSRP starts at $37.5k, but GM sells Bolts to dealers for probably several thousand less than that. GM probably won't end up making money on the Bolt when it's all said and done (unless you factor in CARB ZEV credit math), but the Bolt is the stepping stone to GM's profitable EV lineup, which start to go on sale in 2021.

So people buying Bolts currently are likely getting AT LEAST $37.5k worth of car, if not more. Compare that to a super marked up $40k+ Silverado where GM has yuuuuge margins and likely costs them only $20k to build. Which makes you wonder how if GM, which has access to enormous economies of scale and supplier chains, can't make money on a ~$37k, 200 mile Bolt, how can Tesla make money on a $35k Model 3?

 

[Az_Rael]

but screen angled and matte finish that creates a glare

I have noticed a similar glare issue with the Model 3 screen, FYI. It is super shiny, and when the sun is at the correct angle, it is full of glare. I have been considering a screen protector of some sort to see if that makes it better.

 

[kbM3]

bolt has several positive aspects over the model 3.
...
You can buy one now!
...

I get this point that you listed as an advantage, but it cracks me up. The reason Bolt is available now is because it is much less desirable

It works wonders for Lexus, BMW, Audi, and Mercedes. The owners always make me chuckle. They think gluing a badge on a POS makes it fashionable.

In any case, if you don't qualify for the $7500 credit for an EV you aren't in a financial position to be shopping for one.

The minimum price after all discounts and incentives for new Model 3LR is $40,000 in CA. It's $24,495 for a Bolt. So 63% more money. Different demographic.

$40k luxury cars have many tangible advantages.

 

[McRat]

For those quoting that "$9k loss" figure on every Bolt sold, UBS did a teardown of a Bolt that somehow leaked out, and they found that the Bolt costs about $33k for GM to build, with $10-12k for battery costs alone. MSRP starts at $37.5k, but GM sells Bolts to dealers for probably several thousand less than that. GM probably won't end up making money on the Bolt when it's all said and done (unless you factor in CARB ZEV credit math), but the Bolt is the stepping stone to GM's profitable EV lineup, which start to go on sale in 2021.

So people buying Bolts currently are likely getting AT LEAST $37.5k worth of car, if not more. Compare that to a super marked up $40k+ Silverado where GM has yuuuuge margins and likely costs them only $20k to build. Which makes you wonder how if GM, which has access to enormous economies of scale and supplier chains, can't make money on a ~$37k, 200 mile Bolt, how can Tesla make money on a $35k Model 3?

Intellectual Property crossover to other projects, and IP sales, combined with structuring a robust supply chain for EV components is never counted with outside cost analysis. Simply because they do not know what IP exists, what the crossover is, or who licenses it for how much, nor what sunk costs are in the current prices of components for tooling and inventory management.

It is interesting that the Bolt wiped out all the established non-luxury-badge EVs right of the bat, after being called ugly, uncomfortable, overpriced, under-ranged, poor quality, and inefficient by the established EV crowd. However, somehow non-EV media people gave it rave reviews, even many GM haters. Nobody is buying a Bolt as a status symbol, they are buying them for daily use. It's a hammer, not a violin.
A Bolt + Volt for 2 car family with 2 kids? Unlimited range when needed, can carry objects 8 feet long, very safe, and in our state, starting at $56,000 after discounts for BOTH cars combined, one with ACC and electronic warfare suite, one for long range daily commuting, or once a week charging.

 

[McRat]

I get this point that you listed as an advantage, but it cracks me up. The reason Bolt is available now is because it is much less desirable



$40k luxury cars have many tangible advantages.

If you said $80k I'd agree. You'd have 4 wheel steering AWD, >400 HP/TQ, magnetic suspension, hand's free driving, track worthy handling, supple ride, full luxury interior, advanced entertainment, 4G, individual screens, massage/heat/cooled/reclining seats F/R, video recorder, 360 camera, digital rearview, HUD, killer stereo?

Bolt inventory levels are very low. My favorite outlet used to have 100 cars, now has 8. Inventory won't support 3 weeks of sales. Dec was peak sales so far. 4Q there were more Bolt sales than Model S sales.

 

[Don TLR]

No one has mentioned looks.
You still have to wake up every morning and go out to the garage only to be disappointed seeing a Bolt sitting in your garage versus a sleek fine looking M3, its not as nice as an S IMHO but still..
I was looking at Volts a while ago and then the Vol,t but once I sat in it and looked it over no way I was going to shell out almost 40K for that car so I went CPO P85..