So the Ford Mustang Mach-E launch... do people know the running costs?

[CertLive]

This is a fine looking car and with the auto closing boot and parking aids look superior to my model 3. The speed and mile efficiency well we will have to see on that. But its intertwined with the Ionity network and that is going to mean a very expensive travel experience at almost 3x the cost. Well done Ford competition is needed!

Tesla Model 3 SR+ Superchargers upto 175kw speed - £0.24p kwh
Ford Mach-E on Ionity 115kw speed - £0.69p kwh

That is an insane different to your running costs if you are a traveller or motorway driver. May Tesla continue to run it this way!

 

[holmgang]

Most people charge at home

They plan a compatible charging network beyond Ionity's

It uses a non-proprietary connector

 

[CertLive]

Most people charge at home

They plan a compatible charging network beyond Ionity's

It uses a non-proprietary connector

Well if you have a driveway you are OK. Whole other infrastructure problem or network reliance if you park near flats or on the street. My M3 has a CCS connector so I can use any network if I need to.

Lets hope the network beyond is competitive for everyone's sake because Ionity are crazy to do that pricing it higher than petrol.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

The Electrify America and other CCS fast charging networks in the US are similarly very expensive. I calculated a long trip in the US and it would cost $451 in the Mach-E, $134 in our Model 3 and $0 in my Model S.

 

[TomB985]

I agree with your analysis of the Mach E. This is likely the first real competition for Tesla, which is badly needed in the marketplace.

Right now third-party fast charging is expensive because it isn't subsidized by purchasers of their brand of car. My best guess is that Tesla sells power at a cost just high enough to turn a profit operating the network, while charging off the construction costs somewhere else on their balance sheet. Third-party charging networks can't do that, and those expensive charging stations won't build themselves. I expect this cost will go down significantly as more capacity comes online and the networks become viable.

 

[Gondi63]

My best guess is that Tesla sells power at a cost just high enough to turn a profit

Elon has said in the past he does not plan for the SC network to be a profit center.

 

[TomB985]

Elon has said in the past he does not plan for the SC network to be a profit center.

At the $0.24 per kilowatt hour they charge around here, of course it isn't.

My point was that they likely cover their running costs while charging off the build costs to the vehicle sales. That is how they can afford to do it. Ionity doesn't build cars, so they can't, hence substantially higher costs at the "pump"

 

[Akikiki]

Mach E is a nice looking car. I hope it succeeds. But then again, it probably will. They reverse engineered a Model 3 to be able to build it. But that does not matter how. Good to have another EV available to anyone.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

This is a fine looking car and with the auto closing boot and parking aids look superior to my model 3. The speed and mile efficiency well we will have to see on that. But its intertwined with the Ionity network and that is going to mean a very expensive travel experience at almost 3x the cost. Well done Ford competition is needed!

Tesla Model 3 SR+ Superchargers upto 175kw speed - £0.24p kwh
Ford Mach-E on Ionity 115kw speed - £0.69p kwh

That is an insane different to your running costs if you are a traveller or motorway driver. May Tesla continue to run it this way!

I thought that in the Fully Charged video they mentioned that Mach-E owners would get a discount on Ionity, like the Audi deal.

 

[diamond.g]

At the $0.24 per kilowatt hour they charge around here, of course it isn't.

My point was that they likely cover their running costs while charging off the build costs to the vehicle sales. That is how they can afford to do it. Ionity doesn't build cars, so they can't, hence substantially higher costs at the "pump"

It's a joint venture founded by the BMW Group, Daimler AG, Ford Motor Company and Volkswagen Group with Audi and Porsche, but other automotive manufacturers are invited to help expand the network

So of course they could offer lower cost charging if they wanted to.

 

[TomB985]

So of course they could offer lower cost charging if they wanted to.

Right, but Tesla made some EXTREMELY risky financial moves getting to the point they are at right now. Risks that could have driven them completely bankrupt as recently as last year. Negative cash flows in the billions, piling on debt each quarter, all with a theoretical payday at the end in an industry with notoriously low margins. Those gambles turned out to be visionary, and the company seems to be doing well.

But the overall majority of companies aren't willing to invest that much capital for a questionable return. Tesla is the only manufacturer that seems to be able to sell an EV nowadays, and there is skepticism in how much additional demand is out there. I think the demand is there they make a compelling product at an appropriate price point, and the Mach E scratches both of those itches. But I can see why Ford is reluctant to spend millions on charging network to sell electricity at cost.

 

[diamond.g]

Right, but Tesla made some EXTREMELY risky financial moves getting to the point they are at right now. Risks that could have driven them completely bankrupt as recently as last year. Negative cash flows in the billions, piling on debt each quarter, all with a theoretical payday at the end in an industry with notoriously low margins. Those gambles turned out to be visionary, and the company seems to be doing well.

But the overall majority of companies aren't willing to invest that much capital for a questionable return. Tesla is the only manufacturer that seems to be able to sell an EV nowadays, and there is skepticism in how much additional demand is out there. I think the demand is there they make a compelling product at an appropriate price point, and the Mach E scratches both of those itches. But I can see why Ford is reluctant to spend millions on charging network to sell electricity at cost.

That is fair. I am hoping that the Mach E does really well, as it will spur more EV adoption.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Ford has a pretty nice SUV. Does not have the efficiency and technology of the latest Tesla offerings.

For owners that do not much travel outside their town, the extra costs of longer travel might be an acceptable comprimise.

Biggest issue is that Tesla continues to be a moving target. As soon as a competitors shows up, Tesla tends to advance the technology, lower the costs and improve the reliability.

Would hate to be a legacy manufacturer right now, competing against Tesla for the mass EV market.

 

[TomB985]

Would hate to be a legacy manufacturer right now, competing against Tesla for the mass EV market.

No doubt. But I’m sure many felt the same about Tesla just a few years back.

Sometimes people forget that there are extremely smart people working for each company trying to make the best product they can. Never underestimate the capacity of human innovation, even if it’s from a company you perceive to be behind the curve.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Problem is when human innovation is squashed by legacy management, trying to continue in the old ways. Takes a long time to turn around an industry as large and complicated as an auto company.

Last month I have the chance to take a couple Ford and GM engineers for a drive/ride in my X. You could see their eyes get as wide as saucers when they realized now much better the driving experience was than in their rental ICE cars.

They are loyal as can be, towards their own companies, but realize how far advance the technology is with Tesla.

For the past several years, most all legacy builders have been focusing on meeting fuel economy standards by refining their legacy engines to become more efficient. They are beginning to realize that most gassers are only about 40% efficient, while electric drive is closer to 90%.

 

[Billyk24]

take a couple Ford and GM engineers for a drive/ride in my X.---in Detroit or where you live? How did you get so called engineers from two different companies at the same time, in the same location for a "joy ride"?

 

[Candleflame]

I agree with your analysis of the Mach E. This is likely the first real competition for Tesla, which is badly needed in the marketplace.

Right now third-party fast charging is expensive because it isn't subsidized by purchasers of their brand of car. My best guess is that Tesla sells power at a cost just high enough to turn a profit operating the network, while charging off the construction costs somewhere else on their balance sheet. Third-party charging networks can't do that, and those expensive charging stations won't build themselves. I expect this cost will go down significantly as more capacity comes online and the networks become viable.

I think outside of the USA supercharging is very expensive but thats bedsides the point.

Tesla has the unique advantage that they can book the supercharging costs as a loss for the company which is much more efficient than i.e. paying someone else to use their network.

 

[Billyk24]

that they can book the supercharging costs as a loss for the company which is much more efficient---but at what point does a company have to develop a yearly profit before it is bankrupt?

 

[Candleflame]

ive seen the car in real life last year (lucky enough to encounter a mule on the austrian border!) and its very bulky looking with small interior. Doesnt look very practical and probably not very efficient.

 

[TomB985]

I was surprised to see the EPA cargo volume behind the front seats to be a couple cubic feet less than my '14 Ford Escape was. Certainly not a large car by any stretch, but bigger than the likes of the Buick Encore, Jeep Renegade, et al.