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So what car mfgrs will have their own charging stations?

SMAlset

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2017
8,878
9,480
SF Bay Area
Car mfgrs have been resistent to establish their own EV charging stations and have turned down going with Tesla’s offer I think hoping if they HAD to build EVs in earnest that third parties would do the job and they wouldn’t need to. However lately I’ve seen articles on Ford building one very similar to Tesla’s SC design, just a color change. Also Porsche and now Rivian with their own plans. Any others? Will they be able to be used by other non-Tesla EVs? Do you see this just as a way to advance their branding to the public who are looking to go EV? Tesla’s SC network has been recognized as a strong advantage so not surprised some mfgrs would follow their lead but still find it surprising all the same.
 

Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
8,501
7,326
Visalia, CA
Will they be able to be used by other non-Tesla EVs?

Non-Tesla L2 charging stations are J-1772 so all including Tesla (with included adapter) can use.

Fast DC charging stations are now mostly CCS (and weaning off ChaDeMo)

Theoretically, any CSS cars could use, at least that's what Rivian Adventure Network and Rivian Waypoints say.

For now, I think non-Tesla brands just want to have a Public Relations brag that they will have what Tesla has too. They may symbolically build a few stations but most likely, they'll just pass the buck to third parties (dealership model).
 
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e of pi

Member
Oct 6, 2015
35
63
Greenville, SC
VW and GM seem to be following the idea that it's better to be open, with VW group still going in on Electrify America/Canada and GM funding EVGo's DCFC buildout and have a shared resource (though perhaps one where some of the animals are more equal than others, as right now only VW group cars are able to make best use of the 350 kW upper limits of the EA system, and of course its entire existence does owe itself to Dieselgate fallout). On the third party/partner front, Hyundai's offering a bundle of 250 kWh free on EA to new buyers, as are Ford at least for the Mach-E--a smaller and more individual-consumer focused thing than a big investment or their own charges, but still helps grow the broader network. Even if Rivian (and any Ford-branded chargers that may pop up) are initially exclusive, since they all share the same plug and communications standard there's still an option to open up the network later (if perhaps at higher $/kWh) to off-brand cars with a change to the app backend. That's non-trivial, but a lot easier than what Tesla would have to do to natively support CCS at this point.
 

TespaceX

Member
May 1, 2020
431
626
CA
IMO, all higher priced vehicle manufacturers will have an exclusive charging network. It may be the same standard DCFC plug type, but the software will prevent it from being used by other branded EVs. This creates the exclusivity that luxury buyers prefer. It will also mean there’s more likelihood of not having to wait at a charger.

Lower-priced EV manufacturers, on the other hand, will just go with whatever the market trend is. Most will not even build out their own charging network, and so this becomes a moot point from that aspect.
 

mk677

Member
Feb 10, 2021
311
115
jacksonville fl
IMO, all higher priced vehicle manufacturers will have an exclusive charging network. It may be the same standard DCFC plug type, but the software will prevent it from being used by other branded EVs. This creates the exclusivity that luxury buyers prefer. It will also mean there’s more likelihood of not having to wait at a charger.

Lower-priced EV manufacturers, on the other hand, will just go with whatever the market trend is. Most will not even build out their own charging network, and so this becomes a moot point from that aspect.
your assumption is just plain wrong, which manufacturer other than tesla has a proprietary charging system?

EVgo an EA stations are open to any car.
only the rivian is going with the software route on their proposed system.
 
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mk677

Member
Feb 10, 2021
311
115
jacksonville fl
Car mfgrs have been resistent to establish their own EV charging stations and have turned down going with Tesla’s offer I think hoping if they HAD to build EVs in earnest that third parties would do the job and they wouldn’t need to. However lately I’ve seen articles on Ford building one very similar to Tesla’s SC design, just a color change. Also Porsche and now Rivian with their own plans. Any others? Will they be able to be used by other non-Tesla EVs? Do you see this just as a way to advance their branding to the public who are looking to go EV? Tesla’s SC network has been recognized as a strong advantage so not surprised some mfgrs would follow their lead but still find it surprising all the same.
porsche AFAIK has no such plans, they are teamed with EA which is open to for use by all EVs
only rivian will employ a "handshake" to charge like the tesla superchargers.
Ford is going with the standard CCS system.
 

e of pi

Member
Oct 6, 2015
35
63
Greenville, SC
from what I've read the rivian ccs network will require a software handshake for cars to charge at, limited to rivian cars for now
I suspect in the backend, that'll be implemented using the plug-to-charge handshake implemented in the new CCS spec. If I understand right, the idea is once the spec is propagated into actual practice most chargers will look for a handshake for plug-to-charge first, and if so will handle payment detail with the plug-to-charge company the car is registered to automatically. Then if they don't get the handshake, they will proceed normally with app-enabled payment or point-of-sale credit card purchase logic (as they do today). It sounds like Rivian will just take that spec, and just not set up a way for cars that don't handshake as Rivian cars to pay and initiate a session (for the moment).
 

TespaceX

Member
May 1, 2020
431
626
CA
your assumption is just plain wrong, which manufacturer other than tesla has a proprietary charging system?

EVgo an EA stations are open to any car.
only the rivian is going with the software route on their proposed system.
Lol. Please learn to read. Haha.
I never said commented that Rivian will use an exclusive charging plug. I said their software will limit their DCFC chargers to be exclusive to Rivian cars.
 
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SMAlset

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2017
8,878
9,480
SF Bay Area
porsche AFAIK has no such plans, they are teamed with EA which is open to for use by all EVs
only rivian will employ a "handshake" to charge like the tesla superchargers.
Ford is going with the standard CCS system.

Porsche does have plans to copy Tesla's network. Saw an article in Electrek a week ago. Everyone who can is likely to try to copy Tesla. Stupid since they could have probably spent less money and just joined with Tesla in theirs. Acquiring or leasing the actual ground space, costs of construction and maintaining it...well we'll see how it goes for them. Most who follow will have deep pockets but still it's going to be a hit to their bottom line. Assume they will plan on trying to recapture costs through increased charging rates and see this as a direct salvo to third party companies like ChargePoint, EVGo etc.

 

mk677

Member
Feb 10, 2021
311
115
jacksonville fl
Porsche does have plans to copy Tesla's network. Saw an article in Electrek a week ago. Everyone who can is likely to try to copy Tesla. Stupid since they could have probably spent less money and just joined with Tesla in theirs. Acquiring or leasing the actual ground space, costs of construction and maintaining it...well we'll see how it goes for them. Most who follow will have deep pockets but still it's going to be a hit to their bottom line. Assume they will plan on trying to recapture costs through increased charging rates and see this as a direct salvo to third party companies like ChargePoint, EVGo etc.

yes porsche could be looking to build porsche locations using porsche branded charge units in the EU in addition to the Ionity network in place, I do not know whether these planned units will only serve porsche products. however I'd bet that like tesla learned there is no monetary reward for such amenity filled locations, I think tesla built a handful and then stopped building more.
 
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mk677

Member
Feb 10, 2021
311
115
jacksonville fl
I suspect in the backend, that'll be implemented using the plug-to-charge handshake implemented in the new CCS spec. If I understand right, the idea is once the spec is propagated into actual practice most chargers will look for a handshake for plug-to-charge first, and if so will handle payment detail with the plug-to-charge company the car is registered to automatically. Then if they don't get the handshake, they will proceed normally with app-enabled payment or point-of-sale credit card purchase logic (as they do today). It sounds like Rivian will just take that spec, and just not set up a way for cars that don't handshake as Rivian cars to pay and initiate a session (for the moment).
I suppose that you are correct, however currently the Taycans were supposed to have plug and charge capabilities to access the free EA charging, but the system doesn't work as planned and you need to use an APP to initiate the free charging available for porsches
 

e of pi

Member
Oct 6, 2015
35
63
Greenville, SC
I suppose that you are correct, however currently the Taycans were supposed to have plug and charge capabilities to access the free EA charging, but the system doesn't work as planned and you need to use an APP to initiate the free charging available for porsches
Well, that kind of issue is why I added the caveat about "once the spec is propagated into practice". :)
 

SMAlset

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2017
8,878
9,480
SF Bay Area
yes porsche could be looking to build porsche locations using porsche branded charge units in the EU in addition to the Ionity network in place, I do not know whether these planned units will only serve porsche products. however I'd bet that like tesla learned there is no monetary reward for such amenity filled locations, I think tesla built a handful and then stopped building more.

ah quite the contrary on Tesla not building more. Many new locations have already gone up this past year and the buildouts of new locations is continually happening. These stations are anywhere from typically 10 units to +40 stalls as well. Check out the Community section here on TMC by region and then the Supercharger thread for more info.

The Urban lower rated but still fast Superchargers (not L2 charging, but max 72kW) have been expanding locations in retail locations and the higher rated Superchargers locations intended for more longer distance drivers are being installed as v3 or existing sites are updated to v3 (fastest charging available for Teslas). Tesla had plans all along to expand their network as their footprint in the EV market grew and each year network growth has happened here in the U.S. and globally.

I didn’t start the thread to discuss Tesla’s Supercharger network but felt the need to clarify on their network growth. I am curious how other car manufacturers are choosing to deal with the fact that their EV expansion does require similar networks to be available to their car owners and curious if they will invest in their own or not.
 
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mk677

Member
Feb 10, 2021
311
115
jacksonville fl
ah quite the contrary on Tesla not building more. Many new locations have already gone up this past year and the buildouts of new locations is continually happening. These stations are anywhere from typically 10 units to +40 stalls as well. Check out the Community section here on TMC by region and then the Supercharger thread for more info.

The Urban lower rated but still fast Superchargers (not L2 charging, but max 72kW) have been expanding locations in retail locations and the higher rated Superchargers locations intended for more longer distance drivers are being installed as v3 or existing sites are updated to v3 (fastest charging available for Teslas). Tesla had plans all along to expand their network as their footprint in the EV market grew and each year network growth has happened here in the U.S. and globally.

I didn’t start the thread to discuss Tesla’s Supercharger network but felt the need to clarify on their network growth. I am curious how other car manufacturers are choosing to deal with the fact that their EV expansion does require similar networks to be available to their car owners and curious if they will invest in their own or not.
on the availability remark, EA is about where tesla was about 4 years ago with their buildout of their network.
 

SMAlset

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2017
8,878
9,480
SF Bay Area
I guess Jeep is kind of following in Rivian's footsteps. Just today saw this article in The Verge about Jeep partnering up with EA for chargers at trailheads in certain locations in Utah and California. They are only L2 (so like a public slow charger) and intended to fully recharge the 17kWh battery of it's Wrangler 4xe in 2 hours. If you are a Jeep owner and use the app you will get free charging. I wonder how many stations they will install and I'd think that most hikes are longer than 2 hours so might have fully charged Jeeps sitting occupying stalls which I'm sure some will find annoying at best but not unlike the current situation with many public chargers. Also sounds like anyone else could use the L2 charger, not just Jeeps.

 

Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
8,501
7,326
Visalia, CA
from what I've read the rivian ccs network will require a software handshake for cars to charge at, limited to rivian cars for now

I assume anyone can use software, including Tesla, to exclude other brands but the article says that's not what Rivian does. It's different in that aspect:


"Rivian’s approach is similar to Tesla with a few distinct differences. Tesla has built a proprietary network of more than 20,000 Superchargers, which are typically located next to highways and busy commuter corridors, and destination chargers installed at high-end hotels, restaurants and other spots an owner of a Model 3, Model S, Model Y or Model X might visit.

Rivian’s waypoint chargers serve the same purpose — albeit different kinds of locations — to the Tesla destination chargers. However, unlike Tesla’s chargers, Rivian’s waypoint site are open to the public and use the J1772 plug, a North American standard for electrical connectors for electric vehicles."
 

SMAlset

Well-Known Member
Mar 4, 2017
8,878
9,480
SF Bay Area
I assume anyone can use software, including Tesla, to exclude other brands but the article says that's not what Rivian does. It's different in that aspect:


"Rivian’s approach is similar to Tesla with a few distinct differences. Tesla has built a proprietary network of more than 20,000 Superchargers, which are typically located next to highways and busy commuter corridors, and destination chargers installed at high-end hotels, restaurants and other spots an owner of a Model 3, Model S, Model Y or Model X might visit.

Rivian’s waypoint chargers serve the same purpose — albeit different kinds of locations — to the Tesla destination chargers. However, unlike Tesla’s chargers, Rivian’s waypoint site are open to the public and use the J1772 plug, a North American standard for electrical connectors for electric vehicles."

Tesla has been responsible for installing generally a pair of L2 J1772 charging stations (usually Chargepoint--4 stalls) at many of the Supercharger locations we've been to, including those in shopping center locales. Assume these are listed on Plugshare. I also assume you need a Chargepoint card or app for those but available to public EV use. Tesla has always tried to promote the advancement of EVs and I look at this as one of their steps to that goal. Not sure if non-Tesla owners who use them are aware they were installed by Tesla for their benefit.
 

RobStark

Well-Known Member
Jul 2, 2013
10,326
52,926
City of Champions, USA
yes porsche could be looking to build porsche locations using porsche branded charge units in the EU in addition to the Ionity network in place, I do not know whether these planned units will only serve porsche products. however I'd bet that like tesla learned there is no monetary reward for such amenity filled locations, I think tesla built a handful and then stopped building more.

Porsche European charging stations will serve only Porsche BEVs. They are not there to make money. They are there to sell more Porsche BEVs. If they were going to be public they would be branded VW if they had a VW Group brand at all. But VW Group is partnering with national utility/energy(oil and gas) in each large European country to install public chargers. This was all spelled on their "Power Day" presentation.

Tesla last week announced a new mega charging site with amenities in Santa Monica Ca.
These sites are not priced to make money. They are designed to make Tesla cool and sell more Tesla cars.
 

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