This is an open conversation, and many of those talking are sigs or sigs that downgraded.
-
Want to remove ads? Register an account and login to see fewer ads, and become a Supporting Member to remove almost all ads.
So, What exactly is the value of a Signature Model S?
- Thread starter AnOutsider
- Start date
This is an open conversation, and many of those talking are sigs or sigs that downgraded.
I find myself doing exactly that, but more because the delivery dates have been slowly sliding into the future, and every answer I've given to date has proved wrong.
I too think the Signature is a disappointment in terms of value, yet I can't bring myself to switch.
ipdamages
Roadster Sport 835
The benefits of owning a Sig over a P at this point seem to be few, as has been discussed at length. However, recall that there was a $10,000 discount for Roadster owners who ordered a Model S. Model S on Tesla website - Page 2
Many of the Sigs are in that category, so the actual revenue to Tesla is significantly less on those cars - such that there isn't much room for more goodies for owners of those cars, and in fact Tesla is losing money on those cars if you include all of the costs (e.g., amortization of any R&D), and even the incremental profitability by only including variable costs is not healthy. At this time, Tesla is simply in a tight spot financially, and giving away more stuff to early adopters is hard to justify. So for those who aren't happy with early delivery and a scant list of benefits, that's totally understandable. Tesla seems to be fine with that rather than sweetening the deal. A colleague of mine got his Model S last Friday, and he had Sig reservation #89, but he actually got car #71 because of the drop-outs. As to whether it is wise to do this, time will tell. Obviously some people feel duped, and I would have too. When I asked Franz 2 years ago about benefits of a Sig over a P, he told me they were working that out but that I would definitely want a Sig and there would be cool benefits (more than just the red paint). Along the way things got compromised, but getting the car to market and trying to survive as a company is not all rainbows and unicorns.
As for me, I'm like many in that while I dig my Roadster, the Model S is just too big for me, so I'll be driving my Roadster and waving my Tesla pom poms until the Gen III comes out.
Many of the Sigs are in that category, so the actual revenue to Tesla is significantly less on those cars - such that there isn't much room for more goodies for owners of those cars, and in fact Tesla is losing money on those cars if you include all of the costs (e.g., amortization of any R&D), and even the incremental profitability by only including variable costs is not healthy. At this time, Tesla is simply in a tight spot financially, and giving away more stuff to early adopters is hard to justify. So for those who aren't happy with early delivery and a scant list of benefits, that's totally understandable. Tesla seems to be fine with that rather than sweetening the deal. A colleague of mine got his Model S last Friday, and he had Sig reservation #89, but he actually got car #71 because of the drop-outs. As to whether it is wise to do this, time will tell. Obviously some people feel duped, and I would have too. When I asked Franz 2 years ago about benefits of a Sig over a P, he told me they were working that out but that I would definitely want a Sig and there would be cool benefits (more than just the red paint). Along the way things got compromised, but getting the car to market and trying to survive as a company is not all rainbows and unicorns.
As for me, I'm like many in that while I dig my Roadster, the Model S is just too big for me, so I'll be driving my Roadster and waving my Tesla pom poms until the Gen III comes out.
Sparrow
S105/ Roadster 189
20/20 vision would have had me reserve a Sig and a P at the same time and then pick which was the best at the last moment, but I wasn't that smart so I am stuck with the Sig's extra cost and Red with White interior to at least get something special out of it. Would love green with tan interior at this time.
I can see one situation in which (in retrospect) going with the Sig mades sense (other than really wanting the red/white). Say one decided to reserve in early January 2012. Your P# would have been in the 8000 range (if I recall correctly) and you would probably be looking at a Feb/Mar 2013 delivery window. If, however, you got on the tail end of the Sig list, your delivery window would be more like Oct/Nov 2012. So you've gotten your car about 3-4 months earlier and that may make it worth the extra money.
Then again, everyone has his or her own reasons for doing thing. I see simply wanting to show your enthusiastic support for Tesla by giving them a bigger deposit as a valid reason as well. I started with a regular, went up to sig and then back to regular because I really wanted a blue or green one. And, as it turns out, the delta on delivery times would have only been about a month or two.
Then again, everyone has his or her own reasons for doing thing. I see simply wanting to show your enthusiastic support for Tesla by giving them a bigger deposit as a valid reason as well. I started with a regular, went up to sig and then back to regular because I really wanted a blue or green one. And, as it turns out, the delta on delivery times would have only been about a month or two.
Arnold Panz
Model Sig 304, VIN 542
I feel like you and I were major fanboys who got beaten down over time by Tesla and are now unfortunately at this point. Maybe the wait was too long? It's the weirdest feeling not to be feeling elation as my delivery is a month away.
I've thought a lot about this the last week or two and just think that Tesla (predominantly run by really, really smart people with technical backgrounds) completely misunderstood and underestimated the emotional and psychological aspects of this experience. I used the Vegas analogy because my friends and I are planning a trip there, and I was laughing about how my high roller friends are haggling over which hotel is giving them the best deal when they spend more on one hand of blackjack than their entire room bill for the weekend. It's not logical, but those little goodies that the hotels give them to make them feel "special" make all the difference.
The service charge actually made me feel better -- if Tesla had simply added $1500-$2000 to the base price of the cars (which is what I assume BMW does) and said "free maintenance for everyone!" everyone would be jumping for joy instead of the anger and dropped reservations we've seen. It's not logical, but psychologically it's a night and day difference. The same Spock-like instincts are biting Tesla in the behind, unfortunately, as they did with everything related to the Sigs.
They quietly terminated that discount offer towards the end of 2009. It's not clear when it actually ended. I'm aware of only ONE Canadian who actually got the discount, and he had to go to bat with Tesla over it.
I beg to differ. Not all 1,000 people in the US believe in the value of a Signature reservation. My father, brother, and I all have Signature performance Model S'. I am the only one with "Signature Red" (none of us opted for the "Signature White Leather"). None of us find any true value or exclusivity to being a "Signature" reservation holder. We are resigned to the fact that we paid more money to help Tesla's 2012 cash flow. We're not happy about it. It is what it is.
From our perspective we find no true value or exclusivity because we currently tell no one (outside of these forums) that our cars are "Signature." Previously, we told friends/family, etc. that we had "Signature" cars, but this led to many awkward conversations. For example, the early delivery is a matter of weeks before general production (we won't receive it until Mid/Late October). My father and I have received October delivery windows (my brother has not received a delivery window). If Tesla plans on coming anywhere near 5,000 units, general production deliveries will occur in November. So, all the friends/family we communicated that we had "Signature" cars/early deliveries are now asking "where's your car? Has your car been delayed again?" The next awkward question is: how much does your Model S cost? Being that the general public's perception is the Model S is expensive to begin with, I'm always reluctant to get into a full-blown value/cost/expense conversation. It's an exhausting conversation. The "Signature Premium" only complicates this value/cost/price/expense conversation. My father, brother, and I simply priced out a fully-loaded general production car, which is something like $6,500 less than our "Signature" equivalent (I can't remember the exact figure). That is the "price" we provide friends/family, etc. regarding the price of our Model S'. Also, the $6,500 really was not worth the red over Black or White. I love the red, but that is the only benefit I've experienced.
It is what it is. At this point, we simply want delivery of the car(s). We have no expectations of recouping our "Signature Premium," or receiving any additional benefits, etc.
Not that anyone asked for it, but my 2 cents is: Tesla could put this issue to rest by simply providing Signature Owners with:
-Additional 3 years of free "Signature 3G Connectivity" (4 years total)
-A "Signature Opportunity Console"
-4-Year Anywhere Service Plan
-A 3rd key FOB
The "Signature" premium still exceeds these proposed "Signature" benefits. My back of the envelope calculations are: $40 a month for 3G coverage (just an estimate), $2,400 for the 4-year anywhere service plan, and $2,000 for an opportunity console (just an estimate), and $325 for a 3rd key FOB.
Last edited:
Indeed, that would be the best value IMO.
I, too, felt this way. But it doesn't seem like Tesla is as enthusiastic about US, so my enthusiasm for THEM has waned. I just got my delivery call, and kinda rushed the guy off the phone so I could finish another conversation. Just not feeling it.
Regarding the red exterior and white interior...
As of a few months agao, I no longer think of these as Sig benefits. More specifically, not being able to get (for example) blue exterior with grey interior in a Sig means that they've made the "exclusive options" into "limiting options". And don't even get me started on Sunset Red likely available < 3 months after all U.S. Sigs are delivered.
Sig donation. It's the only healthy way to think of it at this point.
As of a few months agao, I no longer think of these as Sig benefits. More specifically, not being able to get (for example) blue exterior with grey interior in a Sig means that they've made the "exclusive options" into "limiting options". And don't even get me started on Sunset Red likely available < 3 months after all U.S. Sigs are delivered.
Sig donation. It's the only healthy way to think of it at this point.
When Carol Shelby build his Cobra Mustangs back in the '60s is was well known what changes he made. All the parts he used were freely available on the market, so anyone could take a "regular" mustang and turn it into a Shelby Mustang. The looked the same, went just as fast, & handled the same, but they were still not Shelby Mustangs. These days you can pretty much add a 0 to the price of a replica to get to the price of the real thing.
Only time will unveil if a Signature will have more value than an identically configured "regular" Model S which lacks the Signature pedigree in it's VIN.
Only time will unveil if a Signature will have more value than an identically configured "regular" Model S which lacks the Signature pedigree in it's VIN.
KBF
Model X owner (formerly Cdn Signature Model S)
At this point, for me the only benefit is early delivery. It is still unknown, but I'm holding out hope for delivery immediately following US Sigs, and I don't believe we'll see Canadian P's until 2013. I did get Red/White, and I like the look, but I would have gladly taken other colors. I've requested to be et an extra set of 19" wheels with winter tires at "no cost" (since they will take my downgrade to 19" rims at no discount), so we'll see about that (did the math and they would still come out ahead). They had an opportunity with the maintenance plan (which would have been logical since we're not getting earlier cars that are essentially unfinished), but failed there, too. So mark me down as one who MAY see some value, but would never recommend a Signature to anyone else unless they are swimming in cash.
Tesla told me several times that they wanted me to be happy with what I ordered, that I should be happy with what they already revealed and not base my decision on possible perks. HOWEVER, I did, and the deciding factor was early delivery. If that doesn't happen I'll be upset. I too don't mention to anyone anymore that I'm a Signature holder. This is telling; we should be proud of it, but right now most of us are a little embarrassed.
Tesla told me several times that they wanted me to be happy with what I ordered, that I should be happy with what they already revealed and not base my decision on possible perks. HOWEVER, I did, and the deciding factor was early delivery. If that doesn't happen I'll be upset. I too don't mention to anyone anymore that I'm a Signature holder. This is telling; we should be proud of it, but right now most of us are a little embarrassed.
pilotSteve
Active Member
+1 micheganmodels. I am one of the last sigs (#1140) and have not heard any delivery dates beyond my rep telling me that Tesla intends to deliver all Sigs by end of October.
However the service cost has been a burr in my undies. It just irritates me and muddies the value proposition as many of us have discussed in other threads.
bottom line: I really agree with you that Sig owners deserve (at least) 3G subscription and full Service to be included for 4 years as part of the Sig premium we paid.
However the service cost has been a burr in my undies. It just irritates me and muddies the value proposition as many of us have discussed in other threads.
bottom line: I really agree with you that Sig owners deserve (at least) 3G subscription and full Service to be included for 4 years as part of the Sig premium we paid.
I don't think I'm getting anywhere near the value for the money from my Sig. It looks like I am not even getting production in the right order anyway. My P-number was in the 100s so I may only get the car 2-3 weeks early. Since I got the performance - there are really no differences other than badging and the red paint. Not much for 7K. Closer to 9.5K if I include the extra paint and dual chargers that I don't really need. I had expected an upgraded interior and other percs. Never happened.
strider
Active Member
Many is quite a strong statement. It was a limited time offer that began after reservations started (so the super early adopters didn't get it) and ended before the first factory event. The SSL list is 244 per the reservation thread but that isn't compressed for drops (I was R180-something then SSL199 and then after finding out I wouldn't get the discount and once options and pricing was released dropped back to R456). So I would expect it's around 100 cars, maybe 150. So maybe 10%?
At SSL 147 I was in long after the discount was gone. I only went for it after the 300 mile battery was stated to be available. I wasn't interested in less range than my Roadster.
mlascano
S Sig #722
I'm also on this boat. I had rationalized after much disappointment when pricing was revealed over the winter that the main perk of the Sig series would be early delivery (and we all know now that the S-shaped ramp up has significantly shortened the expected gap between last Sigs and first Ps). But I've also been hoping at each new announcement by TM that some added value would be given to Sigs. The 1-yr 3G data plan is OK but I had high hopes on the service being included for the first 4 yrs (alla BMW) --> didn't happen (still hoping TM reconsiders, big PR blunder after all the talk of how little maintenance EVs need).
Now I'm hoping that they give Sigs free unlimited access to Superchargers (let's see what they announce next week), a free center console insert for those who want it, and/or free retrofit of features added down the line, etc.... add your favorite perk to this list, just hoping for SOMETHING extra to add some value to the Sig premium.
I won't hold my breath on any of this though. And as KBF puts it, rather than feeling proud of being on the Sig list and singing praises to everyone about TM and Model S, I have that nasty sensation one feels after being taken advantage of. Sure hopes delivery wipes this away somewhat (and here I am waiting for the call/email...).
Tommy
Member
@ mlascano, based on your Sig number, had you reserved a production instead you wouldn't be getting an S this year. That has to be worth something, no?
Similar threads
