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SocalGas & SGIP for 3 PW

af88

Member
Sep 28, 2019
220
34
Cali
That might have been in the past, but I can assure you from my experience now and clearly with @h2ofun they are requiring that information now.

Each his own.
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,079
322
auburn, ca
That might have been in the past, but I can assure you from my experience now and clearly with @h2ofun they are requiring that information now.

Each his own.
I have talked with my installer and yep, they said in the past folks got whatever amount of batteries they asked for. But, not now.
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,237
740
East Bay NorCal
Ok so this topic was actually discussed on the SGIP workshop. Naturally this is my paraphrasing what I think I heard... I could be wrong.

They kind of contradicted themselves a bit since Residential and Non-Residential are treated differently.

One person said that with regard to the "peak annual demand" calc, they are now using a 3rd party provider (ASE?) to aggregate "greenbutton" data to confirm the "peak" demand for the SGIP assessment. Homeowners and Businesses no longer have to upload greenbutton data.

But another person said that residential applications still need someone to upload the greenbutton info.

Regardless, they said someone's going to look at it and tell you if you qualify or not. I couldn't get confirmation from anyone on whether or not a 15 kW ESS (regardless of resiliency, normal-large-scale, blah) needed a 15 kW peak in a given hour. They said "they'll tell you if you don't qualify".
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,079
322
auburn, ca
Ok so this topic was actually discussed on the SGIP workshop. Naturally this is my paraphrasing what I think I heard... I could be wrong.

They kind of contradicted themselves a bit since Residential and Non-Residential are treated differently.

One person said that with regard to the "peak annual demand" calc, they are now using a 3rd party provider (ASE?) to aggregate "greenbutton" data to confirm the "peak" demand for the SGIP assessment. Homeowners and Businesses no longer have to upload greenbutton data.

But another person said that residential applications still need someone to upload the greenbutton info.

Regardless, they said someone's going to look at it and tell you if you qualify or not. I couldn't get confirmation from anyone on whether or not a 15 kW ESS (regardless of resiliency, normal-large-scale, blah) needed a 15 kW peak in a given hour. They said "they'll tell you if you don't qualify".

Guess the bottom line, no matter what program one is in, is has someone gotten the official confirmation letter saying funds have been approved. I know in the ER cases, we get a letter. For folks who did large scale, what was the communication process that a person has been approved and allocated the money?
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,237
740
East Bay NorCal
Someone just opined and said that battery size actually has to be less than peak demand. So if your Greenbutton is 20kW peak in an hour ... you can't actually size up your battery to 20 kW (4 Powerwalls). This sounded like an issue for all SGIP categories large scale non-res... ER, blah blah.

I need to pop some Advil... this is beyond frustrating.
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,079
322
auburn, ca
Someone just opined and said that battery size actually has to be less than peak demand. So if your Greenbutton is 20kW peak in an hour ... you can't actually size up your battery to 20 kW (4 Powerwalls). This sounded like an issue for all SGIP categories large scale non-res... ER, blah blah.

I need to pop some Advil... this is beyond frustrating.
Now, that makes no sense. That is exactly what the process is. Now, I would want 20.1kwh. But how can they say it does not qualify. It is 5khw per battery
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,237
740
East Bay NorCal
Now, that makes no sense. That is exactly what the process is. Now, I would want 20.1kwh. But how can they say it does not qualify. It is 5khw per battery


Yeah, I'm making inferences here, but it sounds like SGIP never intended their program to provide whole home backup. They basically want people to get a "reasonably sized battery" but reasonable to them won't backup the whole house; and definitely not an AC unit.

So 1 and 2 batteries made a ton of sense. But large-scale and resilience were more for partial backup. This basically pinches people like me who just need 3 batteries to start their goddamn air conditioner.
 

BGbreeder

Member
Jun 19, 2020
167
92
Bay Area
Yes, but reasonable size has something to do with how long the utility disrupts power.

Recent performance by PG&E suggests that longer is more likely.

Just my $0.02...

All the best,

BG
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,237
740
East Bay NorCal
So this is what pisses me off... it's 8:30pm and my mother in law is baking some cookies, doing some laundry, we wrapped up dishes, and we're watching TV.

My house is using 15kW right now as reported by the Tesla App and my Emporia Vue.

And I have PG&E telling me I sized my home ESS and loads wrong? I HATE PG&E. They are so out of touch and idiotic... they are looking for any reason to SCREW homeowners.
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,237
740
East Bay NorCal
FWIW, SGIP responded to my inquiry and comments made during the SGIP webinar on Monday.

They say that even though I can demonstrate a burst (eg 15 minute interval) of needing 15 kW (60 Amps) during that interval... they need to measure the hour-long demand which clearly is not 15 kW since I never bothered to try and charge an EV while running my normal home loads.

Had I simply charged an EV for an hour while running my home loads, they'd go ahead and let me get the SGIP. Talk about BS. This is potentially going to cost me $8,700 simply because I didn't try and game their system with artificial loads or behavior to force a fake peak to emerge in my Greenbutton data.
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,079
322
auburn, ca
FWIW, SGIP responded to my inquiry and comments made during the SGIP webinar on Monday.

They say that even though I can demonstrate a burst (eg 15 minute interval) of needing 15 kW (60 Amps) during that interval... they need to measure the hour-long demand which clearly is not 15 kW since I never bothered to try and charge an EV while running my normal home loads.

Had I simply charged an EV for an hour while running my home loads, they'd go ahead and let me get the SGIP. Talk about BS. This is potentially going to cost me $8,700 simply because I didn't try and game their system with artificial loads or behavior to force a fake peak to emerge in my Greenbutton data.
Yep, it has always been an hour or more
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,237
740
East Bay NorCal
Yep, it has always been an hour or more


Where did you see this language for an hour or more? I poured through the docs and I even did the application on their form under my own developer key. I don't see this 60minutes/1hour language for large-scale SGIP or the Resiliency SGIP.
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,237
740
East Bay NorCal
There's a document from the CPUC (R.14-07-002 and R.12-11-005) that identifies that PG&E and SDE wanted "sizing requirements" to be implemented for NEM planning and SGIP.

The IREC (Interstate Renewable Energy Council) suggested using kWh storage capacity sized to the generating facility output. IREC thinks like a homeowner.

PG&E and SDE simply countered saying they wanted sizing limits, but didn't get into detail how exactly (especially with the 60 minute rule) they would enforce those limits. When I was doing my SGIP application, it simply said I had to "size" the batteries to my demand. And since my demand included an electric kitchen and air conditioners, I put 15kW peak (60A @ 240v).

And I can easily show with real data that 15kW is what I experience.


upload_2021-3-2_11-38-42.png
 
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h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,079
322
auburn, ca
Where did you see this language for an hour or more? I poured through the docs and I even did the application on their form under my own developer key. I don't see this 60minutes/1hour language for large-scale SGIP or the Resiliency SGIP.
I want to say I saw it in the SGIP handbook. Plus who ever you are working with should have known. Plus, on this site, it has been talked about many times.
 

holeydonut

Supporting Member
Jun 27, 2020
1,237
740
East Bay NorCal
I want to say I saw it in the SGIP handbook. Plus who ever you are working with should have known. Plus, on this site, it has been talked about many times.


The sizing rules were talked about for Equity Resiliency, but not for large-scale energy projects. I understand the sizing rules for the "free resiliency" projects since SGIP is footing 100% at $1.00. But large-scale is only reimbursed at $0.25 for the first 2 hours and $0.125 for the next 2 hours.

I can understand if SGIP simply said "hey your sizing is more like 6hours so we'll de-rate your application accordingly."

But instead SGIP is just saying the size is wrong and REJECTing it.
 

h2ofun

Active Member
Aug 11, 2020
2,079
322
auburn, ca
The sizing has been talked about for Equity Resiliency, but not for large-scale energy projects.
True, I would have just assumed no different, but ..... You have just run into so many issues. I am still waiting to see if I get the NEM stuff you got.
But your comment from the SGIP meeting having them say but a 20KWH would not qualify for 4 batteries is interesting.
 

BGbreeder

Member
Jun 19, 2020
167
92
Bay Area
Where did you see this language for an hour or more? I poured through the docs and I even did the application on their form under my own developer key. I don't see this 60minutes/1hour language for large-scale SGIP or the Resiliency SGIP.

My installer brought the need to have the demonstrated demand to my attention, after PG&E raised the issue during the SGIP application process. We had filed all of the forms required on the website, and this was an additional request. I had the impression from my installer that this was a new PG&E "hoop", and that I needed to demonstrate the requisite demand of more than 5kW x the number of requested powerwalls to have PG&E sign off on the SGIP request.

So, I can't point you to a document.

All the best,

BG
 

slazinger_7

Member
Oct 7, 2020
31
4
California
So, if you apply for and obtain an SGIP rebate on PW's 1 and 2 in a first install (e.g., under the small-scale residential allocation), it sounds like you can file for and obtain a second SGIP rebate on PW 3 in a second install (e.g., again under small-scale residential), as long as your entire system meets the program requirements (e.g., if you would have qualified for three Powerwalls in the first place)?
 

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