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Software Update 17.17.4

oktane

Active Member
Oct 25, 2016
1,714
1,764
USA
This is a much needed update especially on the side collision warning. I am driving a model X AP2 from Berkeley to San Ramon, total of about 25 miles. Auto Steering works pretty well on highway. However, when it comes to a sharp turn between highway 24 and 680S, it will go OFF the lane, literally left tires over the lane and when turning at 70-75 miles per hour, you would think you are going to smash onto the concrete Barrier! Two things then happen...... 1. Car suddenly sound alarm and tell you to take over the steering, WHILE THIS IS HAPPENING!!!!! or 2. Car corrects itself even though it is clearly over the left Lane into the space between concrete barrier and the left lane mark. Since I commute to work at 5 am, road is empty. I tried driving on the middle lane and see if the car would overlap into the most left land on this same right turn, and it does. I can just imagine what would happen if there is a car on that lane, would my car just slam into it? or would the Radar detect object and stay away from it? Anyways, on this update, I will test out and see if performs any better. This autopilot really is not ready nor safe enough for unmonitored driving.

My experience is the same as yours. Let's hope this version improves lane sensing.
 
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Tam

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
9,110
7,832
Visalia, CA
...a sharp turn between highway 24 and 680S, it will go OFF the lane, literally left tires over the lane and when turning at 70-75 miles per hour, you would think you are going to smash onto the concrete Barrier...

I have found AP2 work very well with sharp curves as long as I manually adjust the cruise stick to a posted speed limit: For CA 99 it's 70 mph, and for some interchanges it's 30 mph... as posted on the roadside. Of course If I don't adjust the speed and let it Autopilot at 80 mph on those curves, I would hit concrete barriers.

In future, if Tesla doesn't want Autopilot to skid off the curvy roads due to inappropriate speed not approved by traffic engineers, they might have to mandatory and automatically reduce the system's speed to posted speed limit signs. And that would make lots of drivers angry for the loss of freedom.
 

Ulmo

Active Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,329
4,428
Vienna Woods, Aptos, California
I have found AP2 work very well with sharp curves as long as I manually adjust the cruise stick to a posted speed limit: For CA 99 it's 70 mph, and for some interchanges it's 30 mph... as posted on the roadside. Of course If I don't adjust the speed and let it Autopilot at 80 mph on those curves, I would hit concrete barriers.
Good suggestions.
In future, if Tesla doesn't want Autopilot to skid off the curvy roads due to inappropriate speed not approved by traffic engineers, they might have to mandatory and automatically reduce the system's speed to posted speed limit signs. And that would make lots of drivers angry for the loss of freedom.
No they don't. Their system just needs to drive better. We humans know how to read suggested speeds, remember our last time on that curve (even better with fleet learning from Tesla), and figure it out from the actual angles being seen using our stereoscopic depth perception brains, something Tesla could easily do within its AP2 hardware.

Speed limits are way too fast for most curves; if not, the speed limits are set way too low.
 

oktane

Active Member
Oct 25, 2016
1,714
1,764
USA
I have found AP2 work very well with sharp curves as long as I manually adjust the cruise stick to a posted speed limit: For CA 99 it's 70 mph, and for some interchanges it's 30 mph... as posted on the roadside. Of course If I don't adjust the speed and let it Autopilot at 80 mph on those curves, I would hit concrete barriers.

In future, if Tesla doesn't want Autopilot to skid off the curvy roads due to inappropriate speed not approved by traffic engineers, they might have to mandatory and automatically reduce the system's speed to posted speed limit signs. And that would make lots of drivers angry for the loss of freedom.

Very few people drive at the posted speed limit. Lots of speed limits were due to Jimmy Carter and saving federal funding during oil crisis (more economical at lower speeds, odd/even days, etc). The speed limit should be 80MPH on all freeways. Anyone that can't safely drive a sedan at 80MPH on the highway has no business driving.

AP2 needs to be improved to the point where it can safely operate at 120MPH, or within the limits of tire traction. This will give a good margin of safety at 80MPH.
 
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chillaban

Active Member
May 5, 2016
3,723
6,539
Bay Area
FWIW, around 50 miles into a 300 mile return trip where I had 17.14.23 one way and 17.17.4 this way.... SUBSTANTIAL improvements in AP2 usability and TACC smoothness when following cars around mountain curves.

AP2 was able to do 2 miles of mountain cliff driving around US-50 near Tahoe with no intervention. I'm not even convinced that AP1 could've done better.

Will update after I return from my trip, but so far I'm seeing major improvements and quite satisfied.
 

BLKTSLA

Member
Sep 22, 2016
246
494
Unknown
Good suggestions.

No they don't. Their system just needs to drive better. We humans know how to read suggested speeds, remember our last time on that curve (even better with fleet learning from Tesla), and figure it out from the actual angles being seen using our stereoscopic depth perception brains, something Tesla could easily do within its AP2 hardware.

Speed limits are way too fast for most curves; if not, the speed limits are set way too low.

Agreed, there are some fundamental rules when it comes to semi-autonomous driving that I think Tesla is ignoring for the AP1-AP2 EAP.

The car should slow down for any turn steeper than X degrees. Currently the system will prompt you to take the wheel when turns are steeper than X degrees or if the time between turns is within X seconds. They simply need to apply that logic to turns on highways, hopefully this will be addressed with the update that ties the GPS data to the AP.

The biggest flaw IMHO is the priority of AP Confidence. AP performs great when it is CONFIDENT, and wavers when it gets less and less confident. Right now the priority for AP confidence is based on the lane markings 1st, then the car in front second. I believe that if the priority was the Car in front and the lines second, it would make for a much better ride. Follow the car in front of you and use the lane markings as a redundancy, so if the car leaves the lane you continue forward until you get another car to draft/follow. If they follow this theme you should be able to be hands off with NO warnings when you have a lead car to follow, essentially piggy backing off of a car for your trip. You add to that GPS data which will ensure that if the lead car switches lanes or takes an exit you continue the course based on GPS you will have a really useful system on-ramp to off-ramp.

Exiting times either way looking forward to future updates!
 

Ulmo

Active Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,329
4,428
Vienna Woods, Aptos, California
Well, I am now no longer in the "initial group" of firmware downloaders. I'm still on 17.11.10 since April 6. No new big data flows via my home wifi to the car. Probably within 3 to 5 weeks I'll be getting some new firmware version is my approximate guess, and a 1/3rd chance that is within a week, and a 1/7th chance I've been put on "firmware update hold", maybe since I might have some special hand-written code in my car (probably to correct for the autopilot not working issue that was solved in my car as stated in the AP2 not working thread). As long as they can manage the bugs to be as low as possible (per-version patches, low bugs to begin with, etc.), I like the idea of having multiple versions across their fleet running at once; it allows them to compare results from different versions, find different bugs faster, reduce bug impacts, and disperse work loads within their company (programming and maintenance) and equipment. I felt they were not doing enough of this in the past, and now they're finally getting to it. I don't mind being on an older version in theory. (In practice, when they introduce or remove big bugs or features in different versions, my opinion of the effect changes somewhat.)
 

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gearchruncher

Active Member
Sep 20, 2016
2,174
2,712
Seattle, WA
Speed limits are way too fast for most curves; if not, the speed limits are set way too low.

??? I'm struggling to think of a road that I can't drive at 150% the speed limit in the Model X and 200% the speed limit in a sports car around every corner. Unless we're talking about turns at intersections which AP2 doesn't do at all. I get that most people significantly under-estimate the capabilities of a car, but are you one of those people that is driving 10 under the speed limit just because the road has some curves and wondering why there's a 10 car train behind you?

Like, literally the point of speed limits is to take things like curves into account.
 
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MXWing

Well-Known Member
Oct 13, 2016
7,458
19,646
USA
??? I'm struggling to think of a road that I can't drive at 150% the speed limit in the Model X and 200% the speed limit in a sports car around every corner. Unless we're talking about turns at intersections which AP2 doesn't do at all. I get that most people significantly under-estimate the capabilities of a car, but are you one of those people that is driving 10 under the speed limit just because the road has some curves and wondering why there's a 10 car train behind you?

Like, literally the point of speed limits is to take things like curves into account.

People who can't safely drive 50 percent above the posted limit safely at all times need their licensed revoke.

When I'm too weak to meet my own standards I'll pay a younger whippersnapper to get me from A to B. Or maybe FSDC can meet that need by then.
 

croman

Active Member
Nov 21, 2016
4,912
7,143
Chicago, IL
On 17.11.3 even if I turned speed down below speed limit on local as on turns it would cross double yellow. I even set it to 18mph with 35mph turns and it'd fail. It is badly programmed. On 17.17.4 it does much better.

No issues so far even above limit by 5mph. Car will slow down on curves automatically anyways.

Tesla just need to keep improving this. This software still needs lots of work but at least it's finally useable locally.

Curves are still being taken as several jerks of the wheel instead of a smooth curve. AS still has issues hugging to close to the inside of a lane on curves instead of how humans do it. However I'm confident they've delivered something that will be useful while we wait.
 

chillaban

Active Member
May 5, 2016
3,723
6,539
Bay Area
Curves are still being taken as several jerks of the wheel instead of a smooth curve. AS still has issues hugging to close to the inside of a lane on curves instead of how humans do it. However I'm confident they've delivered something that will be useful while we wait.

Completely agreed on all counts. I just finished my road trip, and the passengers experienced 17.14.23 on the way up and 17.17.4 on the way down. They all agreed: the previous AP2 felt more like a science experiment and everyone was a little nervous if the road curved at all. 17.17.4 finally is like AP1 in that it delivers a relaxed automated driving experience where everyone can let their guard down a little when they hear the Autopilot engagement chime.

The biggest sticking point is that the car takes curves by piece wise jerking of the wheel. For gentle curves, it consistently stayed in the lane. For sharper curves, it sometimes departed the lane. As long as there were no cars beside me or other dangerous situation, I didn't intervene, and it did eventually recover. But with those sharp curves, in my experience AP1 did not do a good job of staying in the lane either.

The TLDR for highways is: In terms of staying in the lane, AP2 is now more capable of AP1. This is especially apparent when driving near trucks and in hilly but gently curving roads. In terms of driving like a human: AP1 wins around curves. AP1 plans a smooth trajectory. Sometimes it's totally BS but most of the times it's right. AP2 seems to jerk the wheel every second but still manages to stay in the lane

P.S. For local, for me the jury is out. It does handle highway-like local roads quite well. But if you enter a curve during an intersection such that the road curves without lane lines, it's still pretty unstable and scary. IMO right now the main benefit of the local restriction being lifted is if you have a highway in your area where AP2 didn't think it was a highway, but it effectively is.
 

croman

Active Member
Nov 21, 2016
4,912
7,143
Chicago, IL
FWIW, I hadn't heard local on actual local roads but rather the kind of state highways where local was previously useless due to speed limitations. I'll test real local on local roads where I've used every firmware since January. I'm quite familiar with how prior releases both excelled and failed.

I agree with your summation entirely. Hopefully Tesla keeps a focus on curves and smoothing out the approach. While it admirably stays within the lines, it can be unnerving because I've found the latest fw jerks the wheel and it's a lot more sharp then before but at least I'm not heading towards concrete barriers at 80mph

Oh I also tested AS at 90mph and it behaved the same as above 75. Below 70mph and it takes curves more gently but still as a series of straight lines instead of an arc.
 

Ulmo

Active Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,329
4,428
Vienna Woods, Aptos, California
??? I'm struggling to think of a road that I can't drive at 150% the speed limit in the Model X and 200% the speed limit in a sports car around every corner. Unless we're talking about turns at intersections which AP2 doesn't do at all. I get that most people significantly under-estimate the capabilities of a car, but are you one of those people that is driving 10 under the speed limit just because the road has some curves and wondering why there's a 10 car train behind you?

Like, literally the point of speed limits is to take things like curves into account.
I think in some places speed limits have been reduced to half of what they used to be for no apparent reason; your comments are consistent with those areas. In other areas with untarnished speed limits, the curves were difficult to do in the cars from the 1920s-1950s when the roads were built, and still faster than even most 1980s cars could take them. I agree that a very strange push to knock down speed limits on roads has gone on since then, and at the same time car capabilities have expanded.
 
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Dr Doom

Member
Jul 10, 2016
324
89
NYC
Can you get software updates without wifi connected? My garage is a good distance away from my router and I can't get the car to connect even though I'm able to with my ipad or phone.
 

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