Software Update 2018.42.x

[rnortman]

I’m sure the experiences vary greatly due to many factors. Like where you are and on what highway driving habits etc.
For me it just hasn’t helped at all. I used it almost everyday for several weeks before finally just giving up and going back to regular AP. It just can’t manage the highway system and quick lane changes needed to drive here in downtown Fort Worth or Dallas.

I did not mention in my first comment that I have been testing it for weeks now in the urban highways that I commute on every day (Pittsburgh) and it's also been both useless and dangerous. It has absolutely no way to deal with the density here and the quick multi-lane changes that are required at interchanges, plus the often poorly-marked lanes. I had been hoping that if I put it in a nicer situation (namely, expansive, flat, straight midwestern interstates) it would do better. Well, it did better, but still nowhere near useful and often dangerous due to sudden movements that are surprising to other drivers. All of the thing it got right were things that I could have easily gotten right myself (and with much less stress), and the things it got wrong ranged between annoying and frightening.

It seemed that for roughly 50% of exits that I was not taking it wanted me to change into the left lane "to follow route". But there is no need to be in the left lane in order to not take a right exit. And then it would suddenly apply the brakes when that right exit came. And then on the other side of the overpass, when the lane merged in from the right, every single time it would swerve over to the right to center itself in what it identified as a very wide lane. I had to take over every time to avoid looking like a drunk.

On top of that, V9 has regressed in simply keeping stable in the lane -- it wobbles very subtly left and right, which was also common in earlier versions but they had it straightened out (literally and figuratively) by the later V8 versions. This constant wobbling becomes very noticeable on long highway drives and my daughter, who is prone to car sickness, became quite nauseated.

And yet, Musk is talking about finally launching an autonomous ride sharing Tesla Network in 2019? He is either knowingly lying or he is completely disconnected from reality.

 

[drklain]

I think that this is the issue. NOA works very well on highways/interstates. It does not work well when those highways/interstates are in the middle of a city (Dallas, DC, New York, LA, SF, etc.) where (other than the fact there are many lanes and it is part of the interstate system) the road is really not like an interstate highway at all. "Urban" environments are the toughest case for autopilot and will likely remain so for an extended period.

 

[rnortman]

I think that this is the issue. NOA works very well on highways/interstates. It does not work well when those highways/interstates are in the middle of a city (Dallas, DC, New York, LA, SF, etc.) where (other than the fact there are many lanes and it is part of the interstate system) the road is really not like an interstate highway at all. "Urban" environments are the toughest case for autopilot and will likely remain so for an extended period.

I'm saying I just did hundreds of miles on wide, mostly straight, well-marked interstates through rural midwestern areas in good weather, and it was still at best useless, usually stressful and uncomfortable, and far too often outright dangerous. In those ideal circumstances.

When I try it on the more urban highways I commute on, it's just dangerous all the time.

I will say that lane changing (without NavOnAP) is pretty good now on all sorts of roads, unless traffic is heavy. But you still need to watch it carefully and understand its limitations.

 

[drklain]

Clearly we have different opinions. In my view, NOA is the same as the old autopilot, except it now recommends lane changes. You still approve/disapprove them and still have the option to initiate lane changes on your own. If you think it is outright dangerous, then presumably you think regular autopilot (with NOA turned off) is outright dangerous. There are Tesla owners out there who feel that way and I won't argue the point...everyone's perspective is different. I've been flying airplanes almost 30 years and used everything from basic wing-levelers to the most sophisticated 3 axis autopilots. I treat Tesla autopilot the same way I treat a basic airplane autopilot and it's never burned me or made me feel uncomfortable...but then I don't view autopilot on as relinquishing my control of the airplane or car or the need for me to monitor what's going on. Are there times when I will tap the brakes or turn the wheel (turning off AP) for a quick lane change or to merge/exit? Absolutely, but I then turn AP back on within 30-60 seconds when the situation stabilizes. I get the feeling people who think it is dangerous treat the need to do the quick manual intervention I described as an AP failure. To me (and this is just my interpretation), it's doing a darn good job at level 2/3. It isn't ready for level 4 or 5 but Tesla has yet to tell me it is ready for that, so my expectations are being met.

We can certainly disagree with how well we think it works, but that's the beauty of it. You use it if/when you feel appropriate and don't use it when you don't.

 

[GlmnAlyAirCar]

Clearly we have different opinions. In my view, NOA is the same as the old autopilot, except it now recommends lane changes. You still approve/disapprove them and still have the option to initiate lane changes on your own. If you think it is outright dangerous, then presumably you think regular autopilot (with NOA turned off) is outright dangerous. There are Tesla owners out there who feel that way and I won't argue the point...everyone's perspective is different. I've been flying airplanes almost 30 years and used everything from basic wing-levelers to the most sophisticated 3 axis autopilots. I treat Tesla autopilot the same way I treat a basic airplane autopilot and it's never burned me or made me feel uncomfortable...but then I don't view autopilot on as relinquishing my control of the airplane or car or the need for me to monitor what's going on. Are there times when I will tap the brakes or turn the wheel (turning off AP) for a quick lane change or to merge/exit? Absolutely, but I then turn AP back on within 30-60 seconds when the situation stabilizes. I get the feeling people who think it is dangerous treat the need to do the quick manual intervention I described as an AP failure. To me (and this is just my interpretation), it's doing a darn good job at level 2/3. It isn't ready for level 4 or 5 but Tesla has yet to tell me it is ready for that, so my expectations are being met.

We can certainly disagree with how well we think it works, but that's the beauty of it. You use it if/when you feel appropriate and don't use it when you don't.

Having been flying for 22 years, 12 of them professionally, I agree with your assessment.

My reaction anytime I hear someone say "autopilot is dangerous" or "autopilot tried to kill me" is to ask "why would you allow autopilot to get you into a situation where you are risking your safety?"

 

[rnortman]

Clearly we have different opinions. In my view, NOA is the same as the old autopilot, except it now recommends lane changes. You still approve/disapprove them and still have the option to initiate lane changes on your own.

It now takes what it perceives as exits without any confirmation at all. This is often dangerous because its perception is often wrong, and there are YouTube videos to prove it. Sometimes it identifies the lane correctly but then zooms into it far more quickly/roughly than I'm comfortable with; it almost slammed me into a concrete barrier once, and now in winter the roads are getting slicker -- especially exit lanes which are less traveled and less well-plowed -- I think these abrupt, no-confirmation-required lane changes could cause a loss of control, even if the main lane of travel is fine. I believe that even if you are supervising it carefully, you are safer with NOA disabled than with it enabled.

I also notice that the car behaves differently when NOA is enabled in other ways -- as I mentioned it often slows down abruptly when approaching what it thought was a required lane change or exit, even if you had not approved the lane change. It seems more hesitant in general with more phantom braking than when NOA is disabled. Slowing down abruptly for no reason is, in fact, dangerous as other drivers are not expecting it. It's also just annoying, stressful, and uncomfortable.

We can certainly disagree with how well we think it works, but that's the beauty of it. You use it if/when you feel appropriate and don't use it when you don't.

But I paid for a feature when I bought this car which has still not been delivered. Even if NOA worked well, it would not be what has been promised. It is far to easy and too common for people to shrug and say, "well, this is better than it used to be, they're making progress, and don't use it if you don't like it." Tesla needs to be held to account to deliver what they have sold. And I also believe that prospective buyers coming to these forums to find out how well it works before they buy it should hear the full range of viewpoints that exist on this subject among current owners, rather than just the cheerleaders.

And in particular, many existing and prospective owners clearly need to be constantly reminded that these features are not safe to use without very closely supervising and second-guessing them.

 

[rnortman]

Clearly we have different opinions. In my view, NOA is the same as the old autopilot, except it now recommends lane changes.

Also you are changing the subject. The subject is whether NOA is useful at all. You say it is useful on "real" highways (those not in dense urban environments). I say I just drove hundreds of miles on such highways and found it entirely useless and annoying. Clearly it depends on exactly which nice straight well-marked highway you're driving on -- perhaps the quality of the maps in that area matter, or perhaps it is just quirks of how the neural net responds in one area vs another. Either way, it's a sign that this thing is not ready for prime time, if it works so poorly in some areas where it really ought to shine due to their relative simplicity.

I am not the only person that finds this feature extremely disappointing, especially given Elon's hype about a "new level of autonomy" in V9: Navigate on Autopilot is Useless (2018.42.3)

I also, in addition to finding it useless/annoying, found it occasionally dangerous, but that's really a separate subject.

 

[Tic-tac-toe]

Version 2018.44 is an improvement. Certainly better than version 36.2 where the car did not recognize EZ pass express lanes and navigation wanted me to make a U turn on the I95 S. express lane to Richmond.

 

[quickstrike12]

I also notice that the car behaves differently when NOA is enabled in other ways -- as I mentioned it often slows down abruptly when approaching what it thought was a required lane change or exit, even if you had not approved the lane change. It seems more hesitant in general with more phantom braking than when NOA is disabled. Slowing down abruptly for no reason is, in fact, dangerous as other drivers are not expecting it. It's also just annoying, stressful, and uncomfortable.

Oh man this is so true. I used to think driving on standard AP was the same as using NoA but it’s not. I’m used to phantom breaking we have all experienced but this is different. Today it passed an exit (didn’t try to exit or turn) but just started slowing down from 70 to 45 ! Cars behind me were annoyed and thought I was brake checking them. It does this several times in odd situations like it’s a teenager learning to drive and isn’t quite sure of what he(it ) wants to do. It doesn’t do any of this on regular coupled up AP.
And sadly it does oversteer in turns and curves so that it ends up sort of swaying and jerking more than it needs to side to side.
I’ve gotten where I won’t use it now when wife is in the car because she hates that “non smooth” jerky steering.
And while I’m at it. The gains on the AP acceleration and decelerations need to be cut way down.
It’s jumpy as hell. My energy graph sometimes Jumps to the top and 1/2 second later is in full regen. And back and forth. I think that part bugs me more than the other stuff.
I want NoA to be amazing. And I know this is hard stuff and they are trying. And I love my car and will not give up on them. It will get better. But V8 was really pretty smooth for me and I miss it. It’s unfortunate but we may have taken a step slightly backwards in the overall driving smoothness as a whole with V9.
But before anyone calls me a hater I really like the new UI and all the screen layouts. Still has some weird bugs but I much prefer this new look and interface.

Off proverbial soapbox now. Thank you for listening.

 

[Jan Fiala]

In my opinion even the AP (without NOA) is a setback in comparison to the V8. For example, you are on AP in the right lane approaching a slower vehicle. The AP starts to decelerate fairly quickly around 150 meters behind the vehicle (instead of 30-40m in V8) unless you initiate a lane change like 200m in advance!. Then, it moves to the fast lane without increasing speed and first, after the lane change is complete, it increases the speed, then hesitates briefly and then finally it accelerates with the usual rate. All this makes passengers sick and is nowhere near the V8 quite fluent and comfy AP driving behavior.

On a twisty roads it often oversteers and understeers despite perfectly knowing where the lines are. It even activates the line departure warning (AP driving!). Occassionally it hugs lanes for no apparent reason. Just disabling and re-enabling the AP centers the vehicle.

I'm not happy at all with the V9. Only gimmicks arrived...

 

[ReversePolarity]

I'm also noticing different behavior when on AP vs NAP. It seems the NAP will slow down fairly often even though the exits are far away. I've noticed this while testing on same stretch of highway with comparable weather/traffic conditions. For example AP will hold steady at 70mph but NAP will slow down to 55-60 even if no vehicle in front.

And another weird part is, if I'm at 70mph with destination set and AP on, TOGGLING "navigate on autopilot" on screen and car immediately slows down to 60ish. Turning NAP off via screen will immediately speed up the car to 70. Kind of weird but we will see what the next update brings.

 

[rnortman]

I'm also noticing different behavior when on AP vs NAP. It seems the NAP will slow down fairly often even though the exits are far away. I've noticed this while testing on same stretch of highway with comparable weather/traffic conditions. For example AP will hold steady at 70mph but NAP will slow down to 55-60 even if no vehicle in front.

And another weird part is, if I'm at 70mph with destination set and AP on, TOGGLING "navigate on autopilot" on screen and car immediately slows down to 60ish. Turning NAP off via screen will immediately speed up the car to 70. Kind of weird but we will see what the next update brings.

I have noticed that turning on Autosteer makes the car slightly more cautious with speed/following distance than TACC alone, and then turning on NAP makes it another significant step more cautious again, including slowing down for no clear reason even when there is no car ahead of you. It is annoying, uncomfortable and potentially dangerous because it's surprising to other drivers. It makes the feature completely not worth it.

 

[conman]

Here's my take on the increased nervousness and hesitation:
Phantom braking will get a lot worse before it gets better

 

[f-stop]

anybody still on v9 2018.42.2 finding that the UI on the 17" screen just randomly locks up / crashes for no reason?

for me, ever since updating to v9 / 42.2 I'm getting frequent random crashes on the CID (MCU1 / AP1 MS, btw) - for example it happened twice yesterday. Otherwise it seems to happen every few days. Never a problem like that before v9

i.e. sometimes I get back into the car after parked for a while and although the audio is playing normally, the entire screen won't respond to touches at all, the GUI is totally unresponsive, and a reboot is required to restore. Or other times everything seems for a while, but later when I go to access something via the screen it's locked up/frozen - reboot required.

aside from that, a few other annoying v9 GUI problems in 42.2, as mentioned in threads elsewhere, e.g.
- stuttering Slacker audio (unless you use this workaround to obscure the map with the easter egg sketchbook)
- very sluggish UI in the USB player e.g. it can take many seconds to switch between Favorites and Songs tabs with a large USB music collection, never a problem before in v8 or v7

as for the hacky "fix" by Tesla to again allow the rear camera above the music player, I suppose I can live with it not being right near the very top like in v8, however it's stupid that subsequent fiddling with the music player closes the window above and you're forced to reconfigure the windows again to your liking, instead of just everything where you put them. Very Annoying. And I still say keeping the maps visible & rendering behind 2 other apps even if you don't need nav is stupid (and evidently a CPU-resource hog, see earlier point about Slacker stuttering)

 

[MP3Mike]

anybody still on v9 2018.42.2 finding that the UI on the 17" screen just randomly locks up / crashes for no reason?

for me, ever since updating to v9 / 42.2 I'm getting frequent random crashes on the CID (MCU1 / AP1 MS, btw) - for example it happened twice yesterday. Otherwise it seems to happen every few days. Never a problem like that before v9

i.e. sometimes I get back into the car after parked for a while and although the audio is playing normally, the entire screen won't respond to touches at all, the GUI is totally unresponsive, and a reboot is required to restore. Or other times everything seems for a while, but later when I go to access something via the screen it's locked up/frozen - reboot required.

I would say that sounds more like the emmc (flash storage) in your MCU is starting to fail.