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Solar + Powerwall + EV Charger Setup

Ampster

Active Member
Oct 5, 2012
1,673
431
Sonoma, California
.................
This doesn’t seem ideal to me. I would want to be running my AC at night (since it gets pretty hot in our home at night) using the Powerwalls, but not run down the Powerwalls for the EV charging. The setup that woferry described sounds great to me.
Currently you have two rates, Peak and Off Peak. If you have an EV rate there are three rates, that add Super Off Peak. That rate is significantly less expensive than the others. I think woferry and miimura are describing the same concept that includes the Super Off Peak rate. That rate is around $0.13 per kWhr plus the NBCs at about $0.02. I don't think cycling your battery is worth saving the NBCs.
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,051
5,632
Los Altos, CA
Thanks! Though there is something not quite adding up for me. Please correct me if I am misunderstanding, but it sounds like you have you EV charger(s) on same circuit as the Powerwalls. It looks to me like the app is a blunt tool that lets you choose when to use the batteries not how. So, if I have it right based on your description you won’t be using your batteries for your system/configuration at all while you are charging your car(s). This doesn’t seem ideal to me. I would want to be running my AC at night (since it gets pretty hot in our home at night) using the Powerwalls, but not run down the Powerwalls for the EV charging. The setup that woferry described sounds great to me.
First, there is no such thing as having large loads "on the same circuit". That just isn't allowed. Each large load must have its own circuit breaker. A circuit is generally defined as everything fed by one circuit breaker.

What @woferry described was arranging your loads in the breaker panel(s) so that the energy measurement would be blind to certain loads. This is one approach and my system used to work like that. When it was originally installed, it was blind to all the loads that were not backed up. However, separating it along these lines is not ideal because it prevents you from doing things like offsetting A/C use during Peak hours. It can't be offset because it's not being measured and it's not being measured because the startup load is too big when the grid is down. Certainly, if there was significant benefit to this methodology, you could separate the measurement of loads along a different dividing line than backup / non-backup. I am saying that this is not the right approach.

You say that you want to power your nighttime AC use from Powerwalls, but not your EV charging. This is illogical. Whether you use the Powerwalls or not to power a load should be based on the cost of power at the time that it is consumed. I am on the PG&E EV-A rate schedule. This means that there is no Off-Peak solar generation on weekdays. Since the Powerwall batteries are only charged from solar, the value of the energy in the batteries during the week is effectively my Part-Peak rate of ~$0.28/kWh Summer and $0.22/kWh Winter. If I discharge any of that energy during Off-Peak, I'm essentially giving away $0.15/kWh or $0.09/kWh because the Off-Peak price is ~$0.13/kWh. It doesn't matter if I'm using that Off-Peak energy for the refrigerator, the A/C, or charging the car.

Time Based Control uses your Time-Of-Use rate schedule to decide when to charge and discharge the Powerwalls. If you use the A/C during Peak, it will draw power from the Powerwalls, if you use the A/C during Off-Peak, it should come from the grid. My cars are charged from only grid power because I have them programmed to only charge during Off-Peak hours and because of TBC, the Powerwalls never discharge during Off-Peak.

I will freely admit that the way TBC works is really optimized for exactly my situation with net metering and no NBC (Non-bypassable charges). Other people have different utility rules. Some people don't have time of use and get no or very low reimbursement from energy fed into the grid. Those people want to self consume as much of their solar as possible, regardless of time of day. I agree with @Ampster above who said that NBCs in California are not sufficient to cycle the Powerwalls more than you otherwise would.
 

Odiemac

Member
Apr 19, 2016
109
189
Hayward
What @woferry described was arranging your loads in the breaker panel(s) so that the energy measurement would be blind to certain loads. This is one approach and my system used to work like that. When it was originally installed, it was blind to all the loads that were not backed up. However, separating it along these lines is not ideal because it prevents you from doing things like offsetting A/C use during Peak hours. It can't be offset because it's not being measured and it's not being measured because the startup load is too big when the grid is down. Certainly, if there was significant benefit to this methodology, you could separate the measurement of loads along a different dividing line than backup / non-backup. I am saying that this is not the right approach.

I get where he's coming from with this. The Powerwalls have no chance of supplying power through the night for EV charging, but it does for AC loads. If you're looking to be "mostly off grid except for EV charging at night" then woferry's setup suggestion seems to be the best choice for you.

Miimura, it seems like you have a lot of storage compared to your solar so it makes sense you are more optimizing for grid power cost arbitrage than the OP might.
 

solardudesf

Member
Jul 24, 2019
46
5
San Francisco, CA
Thanks @Odiemac. That is exactly how I am thinking about it. If you only think about it in terms of dollars and cents, then I see how @miimura does not find it logical. That is why I wanted to have this discussion though. Want to see how people generally think about this. Sounds like for what I want I still prefer the solution @woferry described though I would prefer that the system would not be “blind” to the EV charging (but hey guess you can’t have everything).

Not 100% sure, but I think that I am unable to sign up for the EV-A rate anymore. Called PG&E and they said I could get the EV2-A rate which is good but slightly worse than what is being described here.


I get where he's coming from with this. The Powerwalls have no chance of supplying power through the night for EV charging, but it does for AC loads. If you're looking to be "mostly off grid except for EV charging at night" then woferry's setup suggestion seems to be the best choice for you.
 

miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,051
5,632
Los Altos, CA
I get where he's coming from with this. The Powerwalls have no chance of supplying power through the night for EV charging, but it does for AC loads. If you're looking to be "mostly off grid except for EV charging at night" then woferry's setup suggestion seems to be the best choice for you.

Miimura, it seems like you have a lot of storage compared to your solar so it makes sense you are more optimizing for grid power cost arbitrage than the OP might.
I see what you mean by my storage to solar ratio, but the main reason I lean toward arbitrage is that my solar is small and I still pay a significant amount to PG&E at true-up. Large TOU differentials mean that arbitrage has a real chance to reduce the amount I have to pay at the end of the year, thereby helping pay back what I spent for my Powerwalls.

However, I maintain that if you're doing both - running the A/C and charging cars, it doesn't really matter where the energy is going. If you don't have big TOU differentials or have surplus solar and want to self-consume, just offset everything and let the battery run out when it runs out. You could start the cars charging later in the morning, like 4am instead of midnight so they only get the "extra" energy from the batteries.
Not 100% sure, but I think that I am unable to sign up for the EV-A rate anymore. Called PG&E and they said I could get the EV2-A rate which is good but slightly worse than what is being described here.
Yes, EV-A is closed. EV2-A is MUCH worse for solar customers because it devalues your solar generation in the 7am-2pm hours from Part-Peak down to Off-Peak. What that means is that instead of getting about 2:1 kWh from solar to car charging, you only get 1:1 kWh.
 

solardudesf

Member
Jul 24, 2019
46
5
San Francisco, CA
Sigh. Just getting into solar a bit late with NEM2.0 and EV2-A...Won’t be quite as nice on the pocketbook. Oh well. Still helping out the environment. :)

Yes, EV-A is closed. EV2-A is MUCH worse for solar customers because it devalues your solar generation in the 7am-2pm hours from Part-Peak down to Off-Peak. What that means is that instead of getting about 2:1 kWh from solar to car charging, you only get 1:1 kWh.
 

solardudesf

Member
Jul 24, 2019
46
5
San Francisco, CA
Not a huge deal, but with our load (without EVs included) our battery will not run out. If we allowed the EVs to just deplete the batteries we would then have to spend more time charging the battery the next day instead of selling the energy back to PG&E. Thanks for your insight!

However, I maintain that if you're doing both - running the A/C and charging cars, it doesn't really matter where the energy is going. If you don't have big TOU differentials or have surplus solar and want to self-consume, just offset everything and let the battery run out when it runs out. You could start the cars charging later in the morning, like 4am instead of midnig
 

MorrisonHiker

S 100D 2021.4.12
Mar 8, 2015
9,349
8,477
Colorado
However, I maintain that if you're doing both - running the A/C and charging cars, it doesn't really matter where the energy is going. If you don't have big TOU differentials or have surplus solar and want to self-consume, just offset everything and let the battery run out when it runs out. You could start the cars charging later in the morning, like 4am instead of midnight so they only get the "extra" energy from the batteries.
That's what we do. Before 1.37.1, TBC-Balanced wouldn't charge the batteries up all the way to 100%. They would only charge as high as was needed to stay above the set reserve. Now in 1.37.1, it charges them to 100% so we have more in reserve for household use and to cover emergencies. Then around 4:30 am, the Powerwalls actually start powering the house again (even in off-peak) since they know the sun will be up shortly. We have two cars charge totally off the grid earlier in the morning and then one car charges off a combination of the grid and the Powerwalls starting at 5 am.

Since we have a lot of sun and a large solar system, our 3 Powerwalls usually charge from 30% back to 100% by 11 am.
 
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Odiemac

Member
Apr 19, 2016
109
189
Hayward
That makes sense @MorrisonHiker. As Tesla’s algorithms get better the Powerwalls will get more and more intelligent about optimizing for the lowest cost scenario. That’s one argument against making the Powerwall “blind” to EV charging.

To illustrate the other point about connecting EV charging to the same panel as the Powerwalls, I worked from home today and charged the car while the sun was out. You can see the Powerwall working to full in the dips and valleys in solar output, even if the bulk of the charge is coming from the sun.
 
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miimura

Well-Known Member
Aug 21, 2013
6,051
5,632
Los Altos, CA
That makes sense @MorrisonHiker. As Tesla’s algorithms get better the Powerwalls will get more and more intelligent about optimizing for the lowest cost scenario. That’s one argument against making the Powerwall “blind” to EV charging.

To illustrate the other point about connecting EV charging to the same panel as the Powerwalls, I worked from home today and charged the car while the sun was out. You can see the Powerwall working to full in the dips and valleys in solar output, even if the bulk of the charge is coming from the sun.
It would be really nice if Tesla would give us the option to coordinate EV charging automatically with only solar surplus.

That. Would. Be. Awesome.

This is one of the features that would really set the Tesla ecosystem apart from others. It can be done completely "in the cloud" with existing hardware and data if you have Tesla Solar or Powerwalls and a Tesla vehicle.
 
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solardudesf

Member
Jul 24, 2019
46
5
San Francisco, CA
That would be cool! You should suggest this to Elon. Sounds like he has been open to suggestions lately.

It would be really nice if Tesla would give us the option to coordinate EV charging automatically with only solar surplus.

That. Would. Be. Awesome.

This is one of the features that would really set the Tesla ecosystem apart from others. It can be done completely "in the cloud" with existing hardware and data if you have Tesla Solar or Powerwalls and a Tesla vehicle.
 

MorrisonHiker

S 100D 2021.4.12
Mar 8, 2015
9,349
8,477
Colorado
It would be really nice if Tesla would give us the option to coordinate EV charging automatically with only solar surplus.

That. Would. Be. Awesome.

This is one of the features that would really set the Tesla ecosystem apart from others. It can be done completely "in the cloud" with existing hardware and data if you have Tesla Solar or Powerwalls and a Tesla vehicle.
One of these days. When we Tweeted him on May 21st, Elon replied within minutes and said that such features are coming soon.

There should be some big Powerwall/Solar updates coming in August with the shutdown of the SolarCity site...so maybe we'll see something then.
 

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