Solar Roof, big price increase

[bayareaever]

I was about to type that damages are different for each contract. Tesla! Please fix this and just honor existing contracts!!!

I guess for those without damages (many or most I suspect) we are SOL. Tesla likely knows the credible lawsuits will be minimal or otherwise they wouldn’t do this.

I do think the ‘21 FTC might possibly go back to 30% so that would help, but not much with ~50% price increases.

 

[eipi10]

I was about to type that damages are different for each contract. Tesla! Please fix this and just honor existing contracts!!!

I am not providing legal advice. I recommend consulting a lawyer.

Actually, it is routine to have class actions to determine liability with damages determined individually.

Also, this notion that a seller can arbitrarily raise an agreed-upon price because doing so causes no damages is silly. I feel like Tesla plants people to say this pseudo-legal nonsense. Basically, what people aren’t understanding is that “damages” for breach of contract means putting you in the position you expected to be in had the contract been fulfilled, not putting you in the position you would have been in had you never entered the contract.

 

[rocketship7]

I am not providing legal advice. I recommend consulting a lawyer.

Actually, it is routine to have class actions to determine liability with damages determined individually.

Also, this notion that a seller can arbitrarily raise an agreed-upon price because doing so causes no damages is silly. I feel like Tesla plants people to say this pseudo-legal nonsense. Basically, what people aren’t understanding is that “damages” for breach of contract means putting you in the position you expected to be in had the contract been fulfilled, not putting you in the position you would have been in had you never entered the contract.

I also feel like there are "plants" muddying up the waters with:

1) Oh well, I'll just cancel.
2) The contract is unenforceable.
3) Cost of 2x4 went up X%, so it makes sense.
4) You will never win against Tesla, so just stop even thinking about it.

Even the best companies and people may happen to join the dark side, when it's easier to screw someone weaker than take the high road. Having grit is sometimes painful. That is why it is even more important for us customers to not give up and get Tesla to honor the contract. This benefits Tesla as a company in the long run, us as customers, and consumers in general. Remember, our cause is just and the power is in numbers. If you believe in Tesla's mission, don't give up and lead them to the high road.

 

[cobra]

Got the bad news officially this evening with a new "offer". My 78k install went to 95k. The odd thing is with the revised theoretical the savings, the cost only jumped about $5k.

View attachment 653329

What are your ConnectedSolutions and SMART Solar Incentives, are they state based? Looks like good discounts.
A $5k increase, if the estimates are reasonable, isn't bad on a job this size. The quotes I've been looking at are similar to your numbers, however, the non-solar roof portion jumped $10-15k.

 

[Tdreamer]

What are your ConnectedSolutions and SMART Solar Incentives, are they state based? Looks like good discounts.
A $5k increase, if the estimates are reasonable, isn't bad on a job this size. The quotes I've been looking at are similar to your numbers, however, the non-solar roof portion jumped $10-15k.

The ConnectedSolutions and SMART incentives are from whatever utility you happen to have locally (we have Eversource). The ConnectedSolutions incentive is the primary reason I included the PW's as we have very few outages. The 10k estimate is for five years and should cover the majority of the PW cost within 10 years. These incentives are good at the moment, but will change over time.

If you have faith in these incentive estimates, then our net $5k increase is far less than what many are seeing. It's still totally unacceptable for Tesla to do what they've done to customers with signed agreements.

 

[wjgjr]

I also feel like there are "plants" muddying up the waters with:

1) Oh well, I'll just cancel.
2) The contract is unenforceable.
3) Cost of 2x4 went up X%, so it makes sense.
4) You will never win against Tesla, so just stop even thinking about it.

Even the best companies and people may happen to join the dark side, when it's easier to screw someone weaker than take the high road. Having grit is sometimes painful. That is why it is even more important for us customers to not give up and get Tesla to honor the contract. This benefits Tesla as a company in the long run, us as customers, and consumers in general. Remember, our cause is just and the power is in numbers. If you believe in Tesla's mission, don't give up and lead them to the high road.

I really don't see any reason to be suggesting any of the folks here are plants - just people expressing a variety of opinions. And, as somebody who has been consistently arguing that Tesla likely did breach (at least based on my non-lawyer reading of an older contract) and should owe damages, I would still say that some of the above are reasonable points to consider. In particular, I think there are points on both sides being made about how easy/hard it will be to actually make it through any potential lawsuit, and so I think it is perfectly reasonable for some to decide that the probability of winning, or the amount they might get if they did, is not worth the hassle. Others will decide that they feel that it is worth it to try and get some compensation or to at least get the opportunity to argue that what Tesla did is wrong.

Many of the other points are just offering potential thought processes for what might be going on, without necessarily saying it is legal. And, I feel like the sentiment in this thread is near-universal that what Tesla did is wrong. The question then is mostly about whether, and to what extent, "wrong" exposes them to legal liability or is just a hit to their reputation and the goodwill they have built with customers and the public.

I agree with your last paragraph, and I do hope that enough people are able to get together and apply enough pressure to force Tesla to reckon with this terrible decision. But, I also would not blame those who decide they just want to walk away and direct their energies (and energy dollars) elsewhere. In the end, a lot probably will depend on whether there is any viable class action as that would make it easier for those who were potentially wronged to sign on without having to expend too much effort.

 

[h2ofun]

I really don't see any reason to be suggesting any of the folks here are plants - just people expressing a variety of opinions. And, as somebody who has been consistently arguing that Tesla likely did breach (at least based on my non-lawyer reading of an older contract) and should owe damages, I would still say that some of the above are reasonable points to consider. In particular, I think there are points on both sides being made about how easy/hard it will be to actually make it through any potential lawsuit, and so I think it is perfectly reasonable for some to decide that the probability of winning, or the amount they might get if they did, is not worth the hassle. Others will decide that they feel that it is worth it to try and get some compensation or to at least get the opportunity to argue that what Tesla did is wrong.

Many of the other points are just offering potential thought processes for what might be going on, without necessarily saying it is legal. And, I feel like the sentiment in this thread is near-universal that what Tesla did is wrong. The question then is mostly about whether, and to what extent, "wrong" exposes them to legal liability or is just a hit to their reputation and the goodwill they have built with customers and the public.

I agree with your last paragraph, and I do hope that enough people are able to get together and apply enough pressure to force Tesla to reckon with this terrible decision. But, I also would not blame those who decide they just want to walk away and direct their energies (and energy dollars) elsewhere. In the end, a lot probably will depend on whether there is any viable class action as that would make it easier for those who were potentially wronged to sign on without having to expend too much effort.

I do not agree with what Tesla is doing is wrong. Look how many other companies did this, went bankrupt and kept the money. So What if tesla just dumped the business? And lawsuits on top of taking money, many take years if not decades. So, are folks really going to wait with no roof.

Just too much emotion. Folks now feeling like there were getting a price that was basically way under cost of what anyone else could do, if they could do it at all. So is Telsa the only "bad" person here?

 

[Cshama]

I am getting my panels installed next week. I ended up going with a local company at a couple of thousand more then Tesla for a 18.36kw system.

The more I read here the happier I am that I did so. It's so disappointing to settle on a price then get told after you sign a contract that it's now a different price. It's not like Tesla can't afford to behave decently.

It's total incompetence and dishonesty in my opinion.

 

[willow_hiller]

I am getting my panels installed next week. I ended up going with a local company at a couple of thousand more then Tesla for a 18.36kw system.

The more I read here the happier I am that I did so. It's so disappointing to settle on a price then get told after you sign a contract that it's now a different price. It's not like Tesla can't afford to behave decently.

It's total incompetence and dishonesty in my opinion.

I hope you realize this entire conversation is just for the Solar Roof tiles. Paying thousands extra for traditional solar panels just to avoid Tesla is a waste of money.

 

[Cshama]

I hope you realize this entire conversation is just for the Solar Roof tiles. Paying thousands extra for traditional solar panels just to avoid Tesla is a waste of money.

Yes. I fully understand what this thread is about. But for me spending tens of thousands with someone and letting them work on my roof is a big deal. Trust is incredibly important and just changing the price after signed contracts is egregious. Just saying I was glad I didn't use them.

 

[Southpasfan]

Until this thread, with respect to panel installs there were situations where main panel upgrades were discovered and new contracts executed. There were also situations where at some point in the process Tesla canceled due to type of roof.

But if this is just happening accross the board to all pending solar roof jobs it’s a problem - because the fact that up until now what set Tesla apart from other car dealers and other contractors especially is the “price quoted is the price you get” no surprises.

cost overruns are standard in the construction industry, but Tesla as a company is not built on doing things like everyone else.

 

[sportser002]

I have been considering a purchase Tesla Solar Roof since February of 2018 when I put in an order for Solar Roof V1. The eventual price estimate (which I did not receive until April of 2019) was laughable-$184,041 for a 23 kW system with 1 Powerwall. I cancelled my reservation and waited. Fast forward to October of 2019 when Tesla came out with Solar Roof V3 which promised a dramatically lower cost solar roof. I again placed a reservation. By the middle of 2020 Tesla had worked up estimates for solar roof installs ranging from 12 kW to 30 kW. I settled on a 21 kW system. Permits were requested from PECO, the local utility in Pennsylvania. Guess what? They won't allow a system over 15 kW in my area. (Shouldn't Tesla engineers/solar designers know this stuff?.) Finally system was revised to 15 kW, with 3 Powerwalls, total cost of $74,939 (before tax credits). Contract signed on 10/30/20. Wait some more. Tesla finally comes to perform site survey in March 2021. Site survey reveals additional roofing costs of around $9,000 are needed to the install. I am still fine with that. Then April 11th arrives and I get the now infamous email from Tesla announcing price increase. My system cost has now increased to around $120,000 (before any tax credits).

Throughout this process customer service from Tesla has been absolutely horrific-a stark contrast from the car buying experience. I am now 18 months out from initial V3 reservation. I have spent countless hours dealing with 3-4 different project managers. (They apparently keep quitting because it must just suck to work at Tesla Energy.) Meanwhile I am playing a game of Russian roulette with my decaying cedar shake roof. My better sense keeps telling me to bail on this whole project since Tesla Energy obviously does NOT have its act together, but the appeal of the Solar Roof/Powerwall combination makes me stick it out. Now comes the final insult. After all this work, all this effort, all this loyalty to Tesla, the stab in the back of a 40% price increase in my project. And oh, by the way, hurry up and sign the new contract if you want to keep your place in line.

OK, I get it. Maybe Tesla Energy underestimated the difficulty and cost of installing Solar Roof V3. Maybe they need to increase prices on new orders to make a profit. But to screw your most loyal customers who have stuck with you through months-no years-of poor customer service—that’s just bad business. Tesla needs to honor their signed solar roof contracts. Maybe they lose some money on these jobs. So what. Your customers have lost time, and a lot of it, in dealing with your incompetence. Iron out the kinks in the process with these early installs. Maybe your installers get more efficient. If not, you raise prices on subsequent roof orders. But don’t screw the early adopters Tesla. We have stuck with you through a lot and we deserve better treatment. Make us happy customers who become ambassadors of good will for Tesla Energy; don’t make us enemies who tell all of our friends to stay as far away as possible from your company.

 

[wjgjr]

I do not agree with what Tesla is doing is wrong. Look how many other companies did this, went bankrupt and kept the money. So What if tesla just dumped the business? And lawsuits on top of taking money, many take years if not decades. So, are folks really going to wait with no roof.

Just too much emotion. Folks now feeling like there were getting a price that was basically way under cost of what anyone else could do, if they could do it at all. So is Telsa the only "bad" person here?

Regardless of your views, I know you are not a plant.

But, however many other companies may or may not have acted in shady or illegal manners, it in no way excuses what Tesla is doing. I feel like you are conflating multiple issues here. I think you have a valid point that the effort involved in pursuing any legal actions may not be worth it because of the time involved and the uncertainty of any recovery. But that is very different from the issue of whether - as a matter of principle - reneging on a contract is right for a company to do. And it is particularly unreasonable to suggest that customers who contracted for a unique product should in any way be seen as "bad" or unreasonable for assuming that when a company presents them with a price will do the job for that price.

 

[cobra]

I have been considering a purchase Tesla Solar Roof since February of 2018 when I put in an order for Solar Roof V1. The eventual price estimate (which I did not receive until April of 2019) was laughable-$184,041 for a 23 kW system with 1 Powerwall. I cancelled my reservation and waited. Fast forward to October of 2019 when Tesla came out with Solar Roof V3 which promised a dramatically lower cost solar roof. I again placed a reservation. By the middle of 2020 Tesla had worked up estimates for solar roof installs ranging from 12 kW to 30 kW. I settled on a 21 kW system. Permits were requested from PECO, the local utility in Pennsylvania. Guess what? They won't allow a system over 15 kW in my area. (Shouldn't Tesla engineers/solar designers know this stuff?.) Finally system was revised to 15 kW, with 3 Powerwalls, total cost of $74,939 (before tax credits). Contract signed on 10/30/20. Wait some more. Tesla finally comes to perform site survey in March 2021. Site survey reveals additional roofing costs of around $9,000 are needed to the install. I am still fine with that. Then April 11th arrives and I get the now infamous email from Tesla announcing price increase. My system cost has now increased to around $120,000 (before any tax credits).
...

Welcome to TMC! Glad to see some more PA people here. I have seen very little info on PECO and projects so far on the forum. It would be interesting if you have the time to post a thread about your experience with the size limits in PECO territory. I was under PECO prior to our recent move, but am now in a smaller town that does not offer net metering. I have yet to find out if they will limit size of a system installed here, but was considering solar roof orders just prior to the price increases.

 

[Madaldad]

So I was able to get ahold of someone yesterday after 2 disconnects and lots of time on hold. You could tell they were being stressed by the volume of calls. She said this decision was made on Friday, the day before the emails went out. i asked her if they would honor their original contacts and she said they wouldn’t and cited the vaguely worded portion of the contract mentioned previously. While I’m not agreeing to the new terms I am not cancelling, with the hope that something does change.

 

[sportser002]

Welcome to TMC! Glad to see some more PA people here. I have seen very little info on PECO and projects so far on the forum. It would be interesting if you have the time to post a thread about your experience with the size limits in PECO territory. I was under PECO prior to our recent move, but am now in a smaller town that does not offer net metering. I have yet to find out if they will limit size of a system installed here, but was considering solar roof orders just prior to the price increases.

I never spoke directly with PECO about the solar system size limitation so I don't the details of their policy. Suffice it to say, the originally proposed 21 kW system was over their limit. I am not sure if the 15 kW maximum is specific to my house (and its location within the PECO grid) or would apply throughout the PECO service area.

I have not posted to TMC before, but this just pisses me off so much. Quite frankly, I am also concerned about the revelation in the "Steel solar roof tiles" thread that Tesla is now using steel instead of glass for the non-solar tiles. I am concerned about the appearance (matching the glass PV tiles) and durability of that compared with their tempered glass. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise. Someone who lives near me had a solar roof install and the process has been a nightmare for them.

 

[jjrandorin]

I also feel like there are "plants" muddying up the waters with:

1) Oh well, I'll just cancel.
2) The contract is unenforceable.
3) Cost of 2x4 went up X%, so it makes sense.
4) You will never win against Tesla, so just stop even thinking about it.

Even the best companies and people may happen to join the dark side, when it's easier to screw someone weaker than take the high road. Having grit is sometimes painful. That is why it is even more important for us customers to not give up and get Tesla to honor the contract. This benefits Tesla as a company in the long run, us as customers, and consumers in general. Remember, our cause is just and the power is in numbers. If you believe in Tesla's mission, don't give up and lead them to the high road.

There are no "plants" in this thread. I have read the entire thread, and there are people expressing various opinions. Other than the new people who have seemingly joined TMC just to discuss this topic, I recognize every user name in this thread, and all are regular users with their own opinions.

Doesnt mean I agree with all of them all the time, but there is no requirement to be pro (or anti) anything here, just to be cordial to each other when having discussions.

I also dont think its necessarily the best idea to join a website discussion as a new person and start throwing around accusations. I fully get that people are upset, but this website is not affiliated with tesla, and while its a large one with many members, in this section of TMC I have never seen any evidence of people attempting to "shill" for anything.

 

[Southpasfan]

I have been considering a purchase Tesla Solar Roof since February of 2018 when I put in an order for Solar Roof V1. The eventual price estimate (which I did not receive until April of 2019) was laughable-$184,041 for a 23 kW system with 1 Powerwall. I cancelled my reservation and waited. Fast forward to October of 2019 when Tesla came out with Solar Roof V3 which promised a dramatically lower cost solar roof. I again placed a reservation. By the middle of 2020 Tesla had worked up estimates for solar roof installs ranging from 12 kW to 30 kW. I settled on a 21 kW system. Permits were requested from PECO, the local utility in Pennsylvania. Guess what? They won't allow a system over 15 kW in my area. (Shouldn't Tesla engineers/solar designers know this stuff?.) Finally system was revised to 15 kW, with 3 Powerwalls, total cost of $74,939 (before tax credits). Contract signed on 10/30/20. Wait some more. Tesla finally comes to perform site survey in March 2021. Site survey reveals additional roofing costs of around $9,000 are needed to the install. I am still fine with that. Then April 11th arrives and I get the now infamous email from Tesla announcing price increase. My system cost has now increased to around $120,000 (before any tax credits).

Throughout this process customer service from Tesla has been absolutely horrific-a stark contrast from the car buying experience. I am now 18 months out from initial V3 reservation. I have spent countless hours dealing with 3-4 different project managers. (They apparently keep quitting because it must just suck to work at Tesla Energy.) Meanwhile I am playing a game of Russian roulette with my decaying cedar shake roof. My better sense keeps telling me to bail on this whole project since Tesla Energy obviously does NOT have its act together, but the appeal of the Solar Roof/Powerwall combination makes me stick it out. Now comes the final insult. After all this work, all this effort, all this loyalty to Tesla, the stab in the back of a 40% price increase in my project. And oh, by the way, hurry up and sign the new contract if you want to keep your place in line.

OK, I get it. Maybe Tesla Energy underestimated the difficulty and cost of installing Solar Roof V3. Maybe they need to increase prices on new orders to make a profit. But to screw your most loyal customers who have stuck with you through months-no years-of poor customer service—that’s just bad business. Tesla needs to honor their signed solar roof contracts. Maybe they lose some money on these jobs. So what. Your customers have lost time, and a lot of it, in dealing with your incompetence. Iron out the kinks in the process with these early installs. Maybe your installers get more efficient. If not, you raise prices on subsequent roof orders. But don’t screw the early adopters Tesla. We have stuck with you through a lot and we deserve better treatment. Make us happy customers who become ambassadors of good will for Tesla Energy; don’t make us enemies who tell all of our friends to stay as far away as possible from your company.

The problem which is illustrated here is the challenge Tesla has to deal with. When someone puts in an order, its not like an order where you find out a price change in the next week, these projects take a very long period of time, and during that period of time the customer is in a position of reliance on the contractor.

Some of us know how bad that is when something happens in the middle of a construction project where things are already demolished.

Someone will soon post an explanation of this. Here, $83k to $120k is too large to be explained by a standard unexpected problem.

In my case, by contrast, $5k for a main panel upgrade was not only foreseeable, but a standard charge with two competing bids.

 

[holeydonut]

I am not providing legal advice. I recommend consulting a lawyer.

Actually, it is routine to have class actions to determine liability with damages determined individually.

Also, this notion that a seller can arbitrarily raise an agreed-upon price because doing so causes no damages is silly. I feel like Tesla plants people to say this pseudo-legal nonsense. Basically, what people aren’t understanding is that “damages” for breach of contract means putting you in the position you expected to be in had the contract been fulfilled, not putting you in the position you would have been in had you never entered the contract.

What you're describing is a mass action; where a group of distinct individuals are plaintiffs each with their own separate claims. For example, the PG&E wildfire fun-fest is a mass action against PG&E since the factual situation between plaintiffs makes them difficult to treat as one class. Regardless, as far as I can tell, the only winners in the PG&E mass action have been the lawyers.

So consider whether this Tesla Solar Roof thing starts to approach the levels of having a successful mass action. While not all cases will look like a PG&E mega-billion scenario, there are still certain things lawyers want to see before the spend their time:

1) # of affected parties. Good news is that a few dozen could be sufficient. Volkswagen was a defendant with a mass action filed in California around the misrepresentations and "defeat devices" for their vehicles. I remember this only having about 70 or so people as plaintiffs.

2) Strength of the claim of a breach. This one is iffy IMO because Tesla is asserting a clause in their existing contract that they are changing prices because of "added adjustments for individual roof complexity." As far as I can tell, the huge price increase has only impacted homeowners before work has commenced on property. Since these projects are still in a a planning/exploratory phase of the project, they are not cancelling the contract in a literal sense. Although, a reasonable person could infer that the 50% price increase lacks any clear context or explanation which suggests Tesla doesn't actually have a contractually supported reason to modify pricing like this. Anyway, I'd like to learn if people's feedback after speaking with attorneys about their case indicates a clear breach or clever wordplay.

3) Damages. We've beat this horse to death... if lawyers believe there are widespread damages of high value, then those will be more than happy to help hunt for recovery of those damages on a contingent basis. Or as others have pointed out, there may be discounted/free legal services to use in an attempt to seek recovery.

4) Duty to Cure. Tesla can still make an attempt to make this right after speaking with customers. If members here get documented responses of Tesla telling the homeowner to go pound sand will help reinforce that this is not a fluke. And is an intentional decision that Tesla will not budge on without escalating the issue.

 

[wjgjr]

2) Strength of the claim of a breach. This one is iffy IMO because Tesla is asserting a clause in their existing contract that they are changing prices because of "added adjustments for individual roof complexity." As far as I can tell, the huge price increase has only impacted homeowners before work has commenced on property. Since these projects are still in a a planning/exploratory phase of the project, they are not cancelling the contract in a literal sense. Although, a reasonable person could infer that the 50% price increase lacks any clear context or explanation which suggests Tesla doesn't actually have a contractually supported reason to modify pricing like this. Anyway, I'd like to learn if people's feedback after speaking with attorneys about their case indicates a clear breach or clever wordplay.

While I agree there is significant question of whether or not there is a breach, I disagree with the notion that Tesla is not cancelling the contract. Rather than amending the pricing under the clauses that are (potentially) available to them, they are actually issuing a completely new contract with a new effective date. I would be interested to know if other terms are changing, but it seems to me they are very much cancelling the contract and issuing a new one.

Additionally, the contract is effective and in full force on the date signed by the customer per the terms of the contract itself. While there are provisions for when the pricing can be changed or the contract terminated by the customer, the fact that work has not commenced has no special meaning to whether the contract is enforceable in the event of a breach. It might impact the damage award depending on how the plaintiff was calculating those, but it doesn't give Tesla any additional rights to walk away from it.

This is all to say that whether or not on-site work has commenced is largely a red herring in terms of the question of a breach. The real question is whether Tesla is entitled to make this pricing change under the "Price Change" clause. If not, then a breach has occurred. If so, then when in the process it occurs goes to the question of damages.