Solar Roof in Massachusetts

[simpson]

I'm curious if anyone here is from Massachusetts and worked with a municipal electric company. We had a system design that was about 18kwh but now our muni wants to downsize the system to half that which will only generate half of our electric usage (if we are lucky). I'm wondering if anyone else has faced this and figured out how to navigate this situation, I've tried to figure out how/if you can apply for a bigger system but it is unclear why a residential system must be sized under 10kwh.

BTW Massachusetts is an absolute joke when it comes to renewables, they talk a huge game but then put in endless amount of regulation to ensure solar and other renewable energy can't actually grow.

 

[Zinc_Saucier]

I don’t think there’s a hard cap at 10kW AC (inverter size, not array DC size), from what I’ve read from the SMART and Eversource websites, one just has to apply for larger projects and you won’t get the same rates for net metering. Not sure what “endless amount of regulations” you’re referring to? The SMART/local inspection portions of my install (edit: non-Tesla panels, not solar roof)were the shortest wait of all.

 

[simpson]

I don’t think there’s a hard cap at 10kW AC (inverter size, not array DC size), from what I’ve read from the SMART and Eversource websites, one just has to apply for larger projects and you won’t get the same rates for net metering. Not sure what “endless amount of regulations” you’re referring to? The SMART/local inspection portions of my install (edit: non-Tesla panels, not solar roof)were the shortest wait of all.

That is the benefit of going through private companies like Eversource. Small municipal electric companies don't know how to handle any of this stuff yet, or at least around where I live.

 

[Zinc_Saucier]

That is the benefit of going through private companies like Eversource. Small municipal electric companies don't know how to handle any of this stuff yet, or at least around where I live.

And a benefit of using a local installer who is more familiar with the regulations and can better help educate those who aren’t as familiar.

Also, remember that you’re AC limited to 10kW for the easier process, not DC. How many kWh annually are you trying to offset? Might make more sense to try and find ways to reduce consumption if possible.

 

[solarAddict]

MA is one of leading states in adopting solar. And if a small municipal company don't know what to do.. well, that's probably why they are small. And agree with ZC on both counts - you might build as big array as you want but you will have a different rate. And second, if the installer you choose is knowledgeable you should not have any problem to navigate through legal side of the process.

 

[adspguy]

I have heard that some of the municipal providers have very different solar programs than Eversource and National Grid in MA. I‘ve heard that they don‘t participate in SMART and don’t offer the same net metering. This is the one time that being with Eversource seems ok. The state sponsored SMART program is actually pretty good while it lasts.

 

[eml2]

This is a solar rebate provided for muni customers: Municipal Light Plant Solar Rebate Program

 

[CapeCodRoof]

Hi - I'm working with a Tesla Energy advisor for a 27kw residential roof (tiles, not panels) system on Cape Cod / Eversource Eastern MA R1. I spent hours researching the SMART incentive program enough to understand how to build a spreadsheet to capture the IRR, but I failed to recognize my install would be in the >25kw category which seems more complicated. If I use the SMART-BTM-Value-of-Energy-Workbook calculator (ex storage), I get a measly SMART incentive payment of $0.0196/kWh, whereas it would be $0.0918/kWh under the <25kw category (and a compelling ROI). Granted, the lower incentive rate is for 20 years rather than 10, but it absolutely kills the project economics unless I'm failing to account for additional economic gains from moving to the >25kw category. I'm reasonably certain I understand the storage adder, although given Eversource doesn't have time-of-use rates, the economics on the Powerwalls appear awful to me as well.

So, 2 questions if anyone can help:
1) Does moving to the >25kw category provide any additional economic incentives (other than volumes) that the SMART incentive calculator fails to capture? Or am I stuck with a lower return despite offsetting more of my usage (seems perverse to dis-incent lower CO2 consumption)?

2) Is there a compelling economic case for the Powerwalls other than peace-of-mind? I already have a propane-fired generator, so continuity in an outage is not an issue and therefore has no value to me other than the lower propane consumption. But, if I'm doing the math right, the #s stink. Net cost of 2 powerwalls $12,580 ($17k for bundling discount less 26% fed taxes) goes into denominator. $0.0357 incentive adder * 20,400kwh annual estimated production = ~$730 * 10 years * (1-.46 marginal tax rate) = $3,940 as one component of the payback. Second component is Connected Solutions (2 powerwalls, assume 4kw average discharge from each * $225/kw = $1800 pre-tax or $972 post-tax * 5 years = $4,860. Add the two payback components ($3,940 + $4,860) = ~$8,800 vs a $12,580 after-tax install cost. My propane consumption for backup generation is modest, so this really doesn't seem to pencil unless I'm missing something. Any other thoughts/perspectives/missing points would be welcome.

Thank you in advance! I'm a finance/#s guy, and can't believe the info to piece this together is so difficult to find in so many disparate places.

 

[Ampster]

Thank you in advance! I'm a finance/#s guy, and can't believe the info to piece this together is so difficult to find in so many disparate places.

One explanation is that there are many different Net Energy Metering policies and even more rate structures around the USA so one model does not work everywhere. Add to that different consumption profiles and different physical layout of roofs which make any model produce unique results.
As a general trend, where rates are high like in California and Hawaii the numbers usually work out for a reasonable rate of return on solar. Hawaii is even more complex since they eliminated Net Metering. However the high rates have made solar and batteries more feasible.

 

[TORQU3]

Hi - I'm working with a Tesla Energy advisor for a 27kw residential roof (tiles, not panels) system on Cape Cod / Eversource Eastern MA R1. I spent hours researching the SMART incentive program enough to understand how to build a spreadsheet to capture the IRR, but I failed to recognize my install would be in the >25kw category which seems more complicated. If I use the SMART-BTM-Value-of-Energy-Workbook calculator (ex storage), I get a measly SMART incentive payment of $0.0196/kWh, whereas it would be $0.0918/kWh under the <25kw category (and a compelling ROI). Granted, the lower incentive rate is for 20 years rather than 10, but it absolutely kills the project economics unless I'm failing to account for additional economic gains from moving to the >25kw category. I'm reasonably certain I understand the storage adder, although given Eversource doesn't have time-of-use rates, the economics on the Powerwalls appear awful to me as well.

So, 2 questions if anyone can help:
1) Does moving to the >25kw category provide any additional economic incentives (other than volumes) that the SMART incentive calculator fails to capture? Or am I stuck with a lower return despite offsetting more of my usage (seems perverse to dis-incent lower CO2 consumption)?

2) Is there a compelling economic case for the Powerwalls other than peace-of-mind? I already have a propane-fired generator, so continuity in an outage is not an issue and therefore has no value to me other than the lower propane consumption. But, if I'm doing the math right, the #s stink. Net cost of 2 powerwalls $12,580 ($17k for bundling discount less 26% fed taxes) goes into denominator. $0.0357 incentive adder * 20,400kwh annual estimated production = ~$730 * 10 years * (1-.46 marginal tax rate) = $3,940 as one component of the payback. Second component is Connected Solutions (2 powerwalls, assume 4kw average discharge from each * $225/kw = $1800 pre-tax or $972 post-tax * 5 years = $4,860. Add the two payback components ($3,940 + $4,860) = ~$8,800 vs a $12,580 after-tax install cost. My propane consumption for backup generation is modest, so this really doesn't seem to pencil unless I'm missing something. Any other thoughts/perspectives/missing points would be welcome.

Thank you in advance! I'm a finance/#s guy, and can't believe the info to piece this together is so difficult to find in so many disparate places.

Related to the 25kW threshold, I believe it's AC inverter size. Just make sure Tesla keeps your inverter size under that, it's fine to over panel/tile a bit. Make sure you call MA ACA to understand what block they are currently allocating in your area. Realize that by the time Tesla applies for SMAR, allocation may be in a block higher than it is right now resulting in a lower compensation. I ended up two blocks past where I estimated I believe. It reduced the SMART compensation by a good bit. Also, I didn't think power walls would make sense at all but after I ran the numbers, between the SMART storage adder, the federal ITC, and connected solutions, it nearly pays for them in full. I have a gen set, but I'm looking forward to seamless switch over when we lose power and saving the gen for long duration outages without much sun. I am retaining my manual transfer switch.

Looks like the connected solutions program is the same for Eversource. Keep in mind Tesla takes a cut of the compensation for administering/controlling the power wall enrollment. Battery Storage Demand Response

Tesla has been VERY slow for me in MA. I submitted an order on Oct 29 of 2020 for a 4 powewall system with about 13kW DC. It still isn't installed. Every step of the process they takes weeks to do the simplest piece of paperwork. If their prices weren't so low compared to others ($2/watt installed before rebates) I would not have bothered. I expect it will be well over a year before my system is finally installed. Currently waiting for them to submit payment to National Grid for the transformer upgrade cost....ughhhh

 

[adspguy]

Hi - I'm working with a Tesla Energy advisor for a 27kw residential roof (tiles, not panels) system on Cape Cod / Eversource Eastern MA R1. I spent hours researching the SMART incentive program enough to understand how to build a spreadsheet to capture the IRR, but I failed to recognize my install would be in the >25kw category which seems more complicated. If I use the SMART-BTM-Value-of-Energy-Workbook calculator (ex storage), I get a measly SMART incentive payment of $0.0196/kWh, whereas it would be $0.0918/kWh under the <25kw category (and a compelling ROI). Granted, the lower incentive rate is for 20 years rather than 10, but it absolutely kills the project economics unless I'm failing to account for additional economic gains from moving to the >25kw category. I'm reasonably certain I understand the storage adder, although given Eversource doesn't have time-of-use rates, the economics on the Powerwalls appear awful to me as well.

So, 2 questions if anyone can help:
1) Does moving to the >25kw category provide any additional economic incentives (other than volumes) that the SMART incentive calculator fails to capture? Or am I stuck with a lower return despite offsetting more of my usage (seems perverse to dis-incent lower CO2 consumption)?

2) Is there a compelling economic case for the Powerwalls other than peace-of-mind? I already have a propane-fired generator, so continuity in an outage is not an issue and therefore has no value to me other than the lower propane consumption. But, if I'm doing the math right, the #s stink. Net cost of 2 powerwalls $12,580 ($17k for bundling discount less 26% fed taxes) goes into denominator. $0.0357 incentive adder * 20,400kwh annual estimated production = ~$730 * 10 years * (1-.46 marginal tax rate) = $3,940 as one component of the payback. Second component is Connected Solutions (2 powerwalls, assume 4kw average discharge from each * $225/kw = $1800 pre-tax or $972 post-tax * 5 years = $4,860. Add the two payback components ($3,940 + $4,860) = ~$8,800 vs a $12,580 after-tax install cost. My propane consumption for backup generation is modest, so this really doesn't seem to pencil unless I'm missing something. Any other thoughts/perspectives/missing points would be welcome.

Thank you in advance! I'm a finance/#s guy, and can't believe the info to piece this together is so difficult to find in so many disparate places.

Looks like you did an admirable job gathering the facts. It is surprisingly difficult, each provider has different allocations of SMART. I don't think you are missing anything major. Watch out for which tier you are in, the rates taper over time based on participation at each utility.

Is your 27kW rating the DC array? The AC production from the inverter is what matters to Eversource. Maybe your AC is under 25kW. My system is 12.24kW DC but 10kW AC so I get into the lowest tier (best payout). On the powerwall payout, I've been discharging 5kW during their events on almost all occasions, so you are probably underestimating that payout a bit. Also consider the winter season payout, mine was $566 last winter. In my case, the 3 powerwalls payoff in something around 4-5 years between the smart adder and connected-solutions, although I didn't account for those payments being taxable. Still trying to figure out the way to handle that as some folks are under the impression that the system cost needs to be fully written down before there would be income.

For comparison my <10kW system had this SMART incentive ... "a Base Compensation Rate of $0.30081 with an Energy Storage Adder of $0.04285 resulting in an All-in Compensation Rate of $0.34366. Subtracting a Value of Energy of $0.20613 results in a SMART Incentive Payment Rate of 0.13753". Seems like that is close to the .0918+.04 that you listed.

The net-metering for my system is better since it is not greater than 10kW and I get 1-1 net. You should also account for the net-metering in payback.

 

[TORQU3]

Looks like you did an admirable job gathering the facts. It is surprisingly difficult, each provider has different allocations of SMART. I don't think you are missing anything major. Watch out for which tier you are in, the rates taper over time based on participation at each utility.

Is your 27kW rating the DC array? The AC production from the inverter is what matters to Eversource. Maybe your AC is under 25kW. My system is 12.24kW DC but 10kW AC so I get into the lowest tier (best payout). On the powerwall payout, I've been discharging 5kW during their events on almost all occasions, so you are probably underestimating that payout a bit. Also consider the winter season payout, mine was $566 last winter. In my case, the 3 powerwalls payoff in something around 4-5 years between the smart adder and connected-solutions, although I didn't account for those payments being taxable. Still trying to figure out the way to handle that as some folks are under the impression that the system cost needs to be fully written down before there would be income.

For comparison my <10kW system had this SMART incentive ... "a Base Compensation Rate of $0.30081 with an Energy Storage Adder of $0.04285 resulting in an All-in Compensation Rate of $0.34366. Subtracting a Value of Energy of $0.20613 results in a SMART Incentive Payment Rate of 0.13753. Seems like that is close to the .0918+.04 that you listed.

The net-metering for my system is better since it is not greater than 10kW and I get 1-1 net. You should also account for the net-metering in payback.

I'm interested in what you find out related to the connected solutions payments and being counted as income. I don't see how this could be considered income from a taxation perspective until the system has actually generate more revenue than it cost to install. If you determine how to account/show this on your taxes I'd be interested in more detail if you are willing to share it.

 

[CapeCodRoof]

Thanks for the replies. I have a question into my accountant on the tax treatment and will revert back on what I hear (although will add the disclaimer that I'm not qualified to provide tax advice and whatever i say shouldn't be construed as such). My own googling suggested that the incentives are not eligible to offset the basis, but I hope that's wrong because the ability to work down the basis would improve the returns.

The DC/AC conversion suggestions were helpful as I may indeed be below 25kw. That would make the calculations WAY easier as >25kw gets VERY complicated...net metering credits that are only 60% of what you put into the grid and have limited roll-over ability. So I would have to do a monthly estimate of production and related economics in the excel spreadsheet which makes my head want to explode.

Somewhat amazingly, Tesla will not provide referrals for previous customers with a solar roof. If you have experience or can connect me with someone who does, that would be amazingly helpful. I am near ready to pull the trigger, but my other half thinks it's a bad idea to be on the bleeding edge of technology that also serves to keep water out of our home. Life is full of risks and I'd like to lower our CO2 footprint sooner rather than later, but these arguments aren't carrying the day - actual experiences would be helpful in getting us over the hump.

 

[Tdreamer]

Thanks for the replies. I have a question into my accountant on the tax treatment and will revert back on what I hear (although will add the disclaimer that I'm not qualified to provide tax advice and whatever i say shouldn't be construed as such). My own googling suggested that the incentives are not eligible to offset the basis, but I hope that's wrong because the ability to work down the basis would improve the returns.

The DC/AC conversion suggestions were helpful as I may indeed be below 25kw. That would make the calculations WAY easier as >25kw gets VERY complicated...net metering credits that are only 60% of what you put into the grid and have limited roll-over ability. So I would have to do a monthly estimate of production and related economics in the excel spreadsheet which makes my head want to explode.

Somewhat amazingly, Tesla will not provide referrals for previous customers with a solar roof. If you have experience or can connect me with someone who does, that would be amazingly helpful. I am near ready to pull the trigger, but my other half thinks it's a bad idea to be on the bleeding edge of technology that also serves to keep water out of our home. Life is full of risks and I'd like to lower our CO2 footprint sooner rather than later, but these arguments aren't carrying the day - actual experiences would be helpful in getting us over the hump.

Just sent you a DM with contact info. Happy to talk about our project.

 

[dzimhiks]

I hesitate to bother you all with this query, but after talking with the Tesla folks, it does seem the only way to get an answer. Here's the deal: we own an old Cape in Western Mass, and the cedar shakes aren't going to last much longer. I'm leaning towards replacing them with Tesla tiles, for all the obvious reasons. (At the moment, just about the only green aspect of this house is the color of part of the roof.) Problem is, my wife is from Italy, and thus aesthetic considerations are not an option, they're pretty much non-negotiable. And though all the pictures of roofs available have helped, unless and until we see an actual roof, this logjam just isn't going to break. So if anyone would be willing to send me an address, it would really help me make this happen.

 

[MHDmom]

There is supposedly a house in Dorchester and one in Salem. I would like to see the tiles as well. Our 1920 cement house has the original concrete tiles. Our garage does not. My idea would be to replace our garage roof.