Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register
  • We just completed a significant update, but we still have some fixes and adjustments to make, so please bear with us for the time being. Cheers!

SolarCity (SCTY)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Foghat

Active Member
Apr 21, 2015
1,214
5,781
Brentwood
If the merger goes through then there are instantly no problems, I am 100% confident of that. The concern is if the merger does no go through for some reason.

It feels like this model needs to be fully humming in order for it to operate. Slowing down ahead of a looming ITC stepdown threw the whole thing off kilter and opened the door for something like Nevada to have a real impact. They can get out of this muck outside of the merger, but it'll take a while to build that momentum back up and get costs down.

Initially I hoped this move was a ruse to set a 3 month price floor, now that I see the potential rebranded end-to-end offerings it makes a lot of sense to bring Tesla Energy entirely under one roof and just dominate. I think it actually helps differentiate the car brand as much as it helps solidify the solar brand.

The "whole package" will be wildly popular when the Model 3 is up to scale. One phone call to get a solar PPA(+storage) and brand new 3 for probably less than you were paying in electric bills and car payments. Sick. Imagine the offerings they can make to existing Model 3 reservation holders when there's no real sales cost. Buy a system for $2.45/W with production guarantee and American made high-end panels.

So much for my far-out LEAPs! At least my new TSLA shares should triple in time.

Edit to add:

That's the biggest mystery to me, I assumed these assets would ramp up instantly as the PPA became mainstream and become the next big thing for banks. There's literally almost zero risk here and yet the yields are massive. Today's SCTY PPA is certainly more secure than the average mortgage in some markets, these people are either rich with 740+ credit scores or Musk disciples.
Again, they are still averaging below 5% on abs across the entire abs offering group, and before the Nevada buffet attack, they were working their way toward 4%.

It's clearly the default risk whether perceived or not, had given leverage to abs investors at that time. To me, institutions can see the numbers and know these are attractive vehicles. It's just a matter of making the most money from them as they are a new asset class and leverage is available in negotiations.

I feel now, those negations will shift as clarity among Solarcity markets related to net metering and grandfathering policy has stability and continued commitment.

In addition, some interesting leverage will materialize for Solarcity as grid services are unveiled since now, one system will have multiple revenue streams and will be contracted woth regulated monopolies of the grid. As this grows, I have a feeling it will get the best yeilds on the market and litterally fall well below mortgage rates for massive abs offerings as well as tax equity investors and others...
 

neroden

Model S Owner and Frustrated Tesla Fan
Apr 25, 2011
14,676
62,627
Ithaca, NY, USA
There is a clear emphasis here on offering tightly integrated products. We might do well to consider the possibility that the future for SolarCity is more about product than PPAs. This is a substantially different vision for the company that what most critics have in mind.
This is what makes me positive about the deal. I'm probably seeing what I want to see, but I found a number of pieces of evidence which indicate that SCTY is moving away from the direct-financing model and towards a product-sales model. The new financing guy; the refinancing of old deals as ABS which are much more comprehensible; the push to do bank loans which are financed in advance; and of course the effort and money going into the Silevo factory and into cutting "hard costs" of installation.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Seesaw

Drivin

Member
Feb 7, 2016
955
371
CA
SCTY valuation is suppressed by the insanely complicated number of different types of financial structures they've set up. It's an "informational discount".

Is there actually any evidence that that is true?
Complicated structures can also result in an "information premium" being paid due to some variation of "trust" or "it seems right" or "confidence in how they present their numbers and plans".
Obfuscation and complexity are tools as often as they are hinderances.
Ask any Enron, Worldcom or Madoff investor.
 
Last edited:

Foghat

Active Member
Apr 21, 2015
1,214
5,781
Brentwood
Key events: California will now be without nuclear power. Basically, the end of base load which signals the end of the California grid as we know it. This also lifts any curtailment of solar during peak. Floodgates have been essentially open to renewables to take over.
The End of the Era of Baseload Power Plants

Second, California iso now is allowed to aggregate rooftop solar.

Folsom’s California ISO leading push for distributed energy resources

Solarcity can now get certified to aggregate 500kw worth of rooftops to sell power l on the whole sale market.

Solarcity currently has 100mwh of solar+storage under management and I feel the big announcement coming is they will be the first to offer these services anywhere in the world.

This is big big news as calISO is quoted as saying the first DER aggregation will happen early 2017. This is estimated(along with other grid services) is a $50 bln market and Solarcity is first mover on it.

Now how can this current offer valuation be considered anything but theft is beyond me.
 

Ulmo

Active Member
Jan 19, 2016
4,324
4,428
Vienna Woods, Aptos, California
Key events: California will now be without nuclear power. Basically, the end of base load which signals the end of the California grid as we know it. This also lifts any curtailment of solar during peak. Floodgates have been essentially open to renewables to take over.
The End of the Era of Baseload Power Plants

Second, California iso now is allowed to aggregate rooftop solar.

Folsom’s California ISO leading push for distributed energy resources

Solarcity can now get certified to aggregate 500kw worth of rooftops to sell power l on the whole sale market.

Solarcity currently has 100mwh of solar+storage under management and I feel the big announcement coming is they will be the first to offer these services anywhere in the world.

This is big big news as calISO is quoted as saying the first DER aggregation will happen early 2017. This is estimated(along with other grid services) is a $50 bln market and Solarcity is first mover on it.

Now how can this current offer valuation be considered anything but theft is beyond me.
There has been great solar panel market news coming, and there will continue to be, but it will always be sweatheart deals, as every PG&E deal ever has been, even cashing out the Enron thieves to the tunes of billions of dollars. There's simply too much favoritism volatility to know the outcome for a particular solar panel company. I'd have to see solid documentation that any particular solar panel company actually has the competitive advantage in the future (which of course is impossible) to overcome a huge debt question, if any, and there's a debt question for SCTY (so double layer bad). Since solar panels are still a developing and researching and competitive marketplace (and thank god for that for that is what is making this all possible), then there's automatically a risk of product obsolescence and any particular entities tied to those product lines, and I would call this a success in the further saving of the world and good clean original sunlight energy "production/generation" (conversion, really), because almost every product failure due to competitive advantage of another product line means better products and a better world for all concerned. Yes, there's huge great news for solar panels in the rather anti-environmental decision to close down nuclear power plants (which before windmills and solar panels became competitive were the only way to get ourselves out of the dirty energy and dirty morals power problems with fossil fuels, and I still and always will maintain that we should have gone full-on nuclear power, but since solar and wind harvesting have improved, now that is no longer true). The politics that follow that decision are nothing short of fantastic: politicians could have signed on the dotted line for a bunch more coal and oil plants, but instead, they said they will replace it 100% with doublespeak for fresh clean energy (they called it "renewable"*, but in fact, renewable is generally dirty, so I find their wording bad). This is fantastic. But, like I said, that doesn't mean that that fantasticness reaches all the way into the particular pockets of a particular entity (in this discussion for example, SCTY).

* Like Elon talking about "physics first" principles, I like to use "logic and math first" principles, and fossil fuels are renewed: they were harvested by plants and animals, and we dig them up and renew them using them again, which is very dirty. But solar panels get their energy from original celestial fusion, and aren't renewed at all: they are the direct byproduct of light energy already coming to warm the earth up anyway, so any heat output we perform with that light is OK (I'd like to see the science on this, since I know it can't be 100% right). I hate it when doublespeak is used to contort topics I'm interested in, so I continue to try to fix the use of this word (abandoning it is the easiest fix; I like to call the respective energy sources "clean energy" vs. "dirty energy").

edit: p.s.: almost all of USA's nuclear power plants produced recyclable energy sources, that can be reprocessed to use again and again; the amount of actual nuclear waste in such a marketplace would be very nearly zero. Only the damn commies who did all of the "GreenPeace" movements about nuclear caused very valuable energy sources to be labeled incorrectly as "waste", and turned into a huge political football. They ruined whole generations of success in our country because of it, so they succeeded. But, now we have solar panels, windmills, and batteries, so for expedience, we can let the death of nuclear power be both sad and move on to stuff we can actually politically install.

edit 2: Conclusions:

So, this brings me to some conclusions. First of all, every product line is a risk, and while I liked packaging product lines into companies separate from other companies they can bring down, there may be an opposite approach of creating an entity that has enough product lines under its umbrella that not a single product failure can bring down the whole company (look at movie companies (which make endless duds along with their blockbusters and so-so successes) and drug companies for some examples, and I'm sure there's zillions of other examples). Is SCTY such an approach? They are only building one factory with one product line in it. Furthermore, their financing is very heavy in one approach. If SCTY had ongoing R&D, a war chest to buy other R&D outfits and intelligence, and factories ready to come to action for new product lines, as well as a healthy mix of financing methods, then this would go a long way to the big umbrella theory. But, putting SCTY into TSLA is more of a diversification than a big umbrella; it's more like a falling apart cheap umbrella that's about to fold over in the wind, and you hope you can hold onto the flaps and failing beams to make the fabric do anything. And meanwhile you get soaked. Hey, if you hold onto the cheap umbrella JUST RIGHT, maybe it works out. I really want SCTY to go gangbusters. But there's a huge huge risk. That's my main question.
 
Last edited:

Foghat

Active Member
Apr 21, 2015
1,214
5,781
Brentwood
Key events: California will now be without nuclear power. Basically, the end of base load which signals the end of the California grid as we know it. This also lifts any curtailment of solar during peak. Floodgates have been essentially open to renewables to take over.
The End of the Era of Baseload Power Plants

Second, California iso now is allowed to aggregate rooftop solar.

Folsom’s California ISO leading push for distributed energy resources

Solarcity can now get certified to aggregate 500kw worth of rooftops to sell power l on the whole sale market.

Solarcity currently has 100mwh of solar+storage under management and I feel the big announcement coming is they will be the first to offer these services anywhere in the world.

This is big big news as calISO is quoted as saying the first DER aggregation will happen early 2017. This is estimated(along with other grid services) is a $50 bln market and Solarcity is first mover on it.

Now how can this current offer valuation be considered anything but theft is beyond me.
Also to note, since Solarcity's propriety control *software* is set to become *the standard* for aggregation with utilties, they essentially will now be able to enter into contracts with other company's rooftop customers, essentially, Solarcity could be making money off *all* rooftop solar installed in the wild regardless if they are Solarcity or not(once they are aggregation capable) since Solarcity controls are the only certified standard by which doing aggregation.

They essentially are setting up to have control over the entire distributed generation grid as soon as they get their hooks into utilty grid services... And soon they may announce this first mover status as they are set to launch in early 2017 in California.
Again, this is a $50 bln dollar market firmly in sight for Elon and Solarcity execs.

Vision is Well beyond rooftop install company... and that is not even near priced into the current offer to Solarcity investors. Not even close. I guess we know why Elon wants to rush this deal before 2017...
 

Lessmog

Active Member
Aug 24, 2013
2,624
6,549
Smögen
* Like Elon talking about "physics first" principles, I like to use "logic and math first" principles, and fossil fuels are renewed: they were harvested by plants and animals, and we dig them up and renew them using them again, which is very dirty. But solar panels get their energy from original celestial fusion, and aren't renewed at all: they are the direct byproduct of light energy already coming to warm the earth up anyway, so any heat output we perform with that light is OK (I'd like to see the science on this, since I know it can't be 100% right). I hate it when doublespeak is used to contort topics I'm interested in, so I continue to try to fix the use of this word (abandoning it is the easiest fix; I like to call the respective energy sources "clean energy" vs. "dirty energy").
Ignoring the purely commercial and political parts, as well as your conflation of panels to the energy they capture, it's immediately and basically obvious that any contribution from solar panels to Earth heating is fundamentally zero. Ok, there are energy losses at every stage from conversion to transmission to use of the power captured - but the sum total of all of those exactly equal the energy that came from the Source in the first place and would warm up Earth anyway, by an identical amount.

In simple layman physics terms: QED ;-)
 

ggr

Expert in Dunning-Kruger Effect!
Mar 24, 2011
6,973
27,507
San Diego, CA
Ignoring the purely commercial and political parts, as well as your conflation of panels to the energy they capture, it's immediately and basically obvious that any contribution from solar panels to Earth heating is fundamentally zero. Ok, there are energy losses at every stage from conversion to transmission to use of the power captured - but the sum total of all of those exactly equal the energy that came from the Source in the first place and would warm up Earth anyway, by an identical amount.

In simple layman physics terms: QED ;-)
Not so QED. Solar panels are black, but they cover stuff that used to be yellow, or green, or white, or gray. Basically, they do in fact change the earth's albedo. So some energy that used to be reflected back to space will now stay on earth. I will however agree that this effect is completely negligible, since all the energy we need could be obtained by covering something like 0.0001% of the earth's surface (no, I haven't checked that, but it's about what Elon showed when he introduced the PowerWall).
 
  • Funny
Reactions: Drivin

Lessmog

Active Member
Aug 24, 2013
2,624
6,549
Smögen
Not so QED. Solar panels are black, but they cover stuff that used to be yellow, or green, or white, or gray. Basically, they do in fact change the earth's albedo. So some energy that used to be reflected back to space will now stay on earth. I will however agree that this effect is completely negligible, since all the energy we need could be obtained by covering something like 0.0001% of the earth's surface (no, I haven't checked that, but it's about what Elon showed when he introduced the PowerWall).
Yes, you do have a point too.

Elon once showed a map of the US on which an area one pixel worth of solar receptors could serve the entire county's energy needs, maybe that's the presentation you recall. So even if all those panels were the new and beautiful ones due out from Riverbend, their albedo matters not a lot, I agree.

Peace.
 

kenliles

Active Member
Jun 7, 2012
3,060
8,356
Elon once showed a map of the US on which an area one pixel worth of solar receptors could serve the entire county's energy needs, maybe that's the presentation you recall.
Blue square surface area current panels required to capture US Electrical power needs;
1 Pixel surface area of current batteries for 24 hour/day power utilization
Musk- SPB.jpg
 

electracity

Active Member
Jun 8, 2015
4,028
2,531
60606
Also to note, since Solarcity's propriety control *software* is set to become *the standard* for aggregation with utilties, they essentially will now be able to enter into contracts with other company's rooftop customers, essentially, Solarcity could be making money off *all* rooftop solar installed in the wild regardless if they are Solarcity or not(once they are aggregation capable) since Solarcity controls are the only certified standard by which doing aggregation.

They essentially are setting up to have control over the entire distributed generation grid as soon as they get their hooks into utilty grid services... And soon they may announce this first mover status as they are set to launch in early 2017 in California.
Again, this is a $50 bln dollar market firmly in sight for Elon and Solarcity execs.

Vision is Well beyond rooftop install company... and that is not even near priced into the current offer to Solarcity investors. Not even close. I guess we know why Elon wants to rush this deal before 2017...

These absurdities used to only exist in the SCTY thread.
 

doggusfluffy

Closed
Jun 1, 2014
979
428
Seattle
Hawaiian Electric shares fall 8 percent on Ige’s new PUC appointment

Ige, who is opposed to the sale to NextEra, said he is replacing outgoing PUC Commissioner Mike Champley with the PUC’s Chief Counsel Tom Gorak. Champley’s term expires today. Ige said Gorak will take over starting Friday. Ige said he appointed Gorak, 64, because his views align with the governor’s.

Fidelity OTC fund boosted SolarCity stake by 20 percent in May

Run by Gavin Baker, the $12 billion Fidelity OTC Portfolio on Thursday disclosed owning about 8.69 million shares of SolarCity at the end of May, up from 7.22 million in the previous month.
 

jhm

Well-Known Member
May 23, 2014
9,315
30,981
Atlanta, GA
Here's a little math for the Tesla-SolarCity merger.

Tesla has market cap of $28.433B at $212.28/share on 133.94M shares.

SolarCity has market cap of $2.352B at $23.93/share on 98.30M shares.

So the market currently values SolarCity at 0.0827 of Tesla's market cap and a share of SolarCity at 0.1127 shares of Tesla. If an investor holds 1.3627 shares of Tesla for every share of SolarCity, then they own an equal proportion of both companies. It may be desirable to do so as this neutralizes the impact of whatever specific exchange ratio is offered to SolarCity shareholders.

On the other hand, if you believe that Tesla will offer a slight premium for SolarCity relative to the market value of Tesla, then you may want to hold fewer than 1.36 Tesla shares per SolarCity share. It helps to know this ratio of share and that it has nothing to do with the market value of the respective companies. One can decide to be heavy on either company depending on how you see the deal playing out.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Yonki

doggusfluffy

Closed
Jun 1, 2014
979
428
Seattle
TAKE ME DOWN TO TESLA-SOLARCITY: A merger with Tesla could provide solar installer SolarCity some new cover in its war with utilities. SolarCity has been fighting a largely rear-guard action to protect net metering, under which residential solar customers can sell excess power back to the grid at retail prices. The policy, along with the Investment Tax Credit extended by Congress last year, forms the core of the company's highly successful solar leasing model. As Pro's Esther Whieldon reports, the loss of net metering creates a potential new market: solar plus batteries, and the new Tesla-SolarCity may be ready to exploit that opening. "Storage plus solar can make sense in a world where you don't have net energy metering or the net energy metering is limited," said Haresh Kamath, senior program manager of battery storage at the Electric Power Research Institute. "If there's net energy metering, then the storage is not useful because the grid acts as storage."

My electric car does 185: The merger also may open the door to a new relationship with utilities. Established electric providers saw their entire business model threatened by the success of residential solar, which erodes demand for power from big expensive power plants. But you know what drives up demand for power? Electric vehicles. A merged company could suddenly be a utilities' best friend. "A lot of the big proponents of electric vehicle technology are utilities and so at least some of the strategy here may be to strike a deal with utilities that while (the utility) may have to bear some additional risk on the solar generation side, this is going to help to deploy a lot more electric vehicles, which is going to help you on the load side," said Steve Kalland of the NC Clean Energy Technology Center.

PEPCO TO JACK UP D.C. POWER RATES: Three months after Pepco concluded a long and tense merger with Exelon, the utility is asking for a 5.75 percent rate increase for its D.C. customers, which include the federal government. The move follows hard on the heels of a request to raise rates on Maryland customers by 10 percent. “We realize that a rate increase has a direct impact to our customers and so we will continue to work with our customers to identify ways to reduce their energy usage and manage their bills,” said Donna Cooper, Pepco region president.

As part of the merger, Pepco sent $25.6 million to D.C. to offset the rate increase for residents, but Thursday's announcement seems to give life Council Member Mary Cheh's post-merger forecast: "They put a couple of pennies in front of us, but meanwhile they're reaching deep into our pockets," she told DCist at the time. "The money put aside will be eaten up in the first rate increase."
 

Foghat

Active Member
Apr 21, 2015
1,214
5,781
Brentwood

The Hawaii PUC change by the governor is significant because the merger decision with NextEra is next week. This deal two years in the making looks like a no go. If a no go, Solarcity is in a fantastic spot to capitalize on grid services as well as potentially a reopening of the net metering policy under smart inverter requirement.


Again, this is another policy tailwind that makes current deal valuation a terrible one for Solarcity investors.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: neroden and dakh

doggusfluffy

Closed
Jun 1, 2014
979
428
Seattle
I honestly don't know why anyone trusts utilities to keep retail costs down.
Minnesota Power tries again for lower industrial electric rates

The 10 percent rate hike proposed for homeowners is down from 14.5 percent proposed in the first effort nixed by the PUC.

The PUC has 90 days to take public comments and decide on the request.

“Mining and paper companies face significant global competition and unpredictable swings in their business cycles that are going to continue well into the future,” Dave McMillan, Minnesota Power executive vice president, said in a news release. “More competitive electricity prices will play a significant role in encouraging their continued investment in northern Minnesota and help protect thousands of jobs. That’s an important part of Minnesota Power’s mission.”
 

neroden

Model S Owner and Frustrated Tesla Fan
Apr 25, 2011
14,676
62,627
Ithaca, NY, USA
I honestly don't know why anyone trusts utilities to keep retail costs down.
Minnesota Power tries again for lower industrial electric rates
I don't -- and I don't have to trust them. I trust many state PUCs -- did you notice that the report you linked mentions the PUC rejecting Minnesota Power's proposal?

My Public Utility Commission, in NY separated generation and distribution rates. Utilities can't get away with anything on the generation side. It's also pretty hard for them to get away with anything on the distribution side, because rooftop solar keeps them honest.

Consider what the PUC in Hawaii is doing, as well. They are rejecting the attempts of HECO to gouge customers.

I expect that other PUCs will eventually copy what NY did. I understand that some PUCs are deeply corrupt, such as Nevada, but I figure this level of corruption at the PUCs is unlikely to last forever in most states.

When the utilty doesn't have a completely corrupt sweetheart deal with the government, the utility starts acting competitive -- and competitive means they try to keep prices low enough that people don't defect.
 

Foghat

Active Member
Apr 21, 2015
1,214
5,781
Brentwood
Statement from SolarCity Chief Policy Officer Jon Wellinghoff on the Recommendation of the Chair of the Distributed Generation & Storage Technical Advisory Committee of the Nevada New Energy Industry Task Force

Is Nevada going to reinstate net metering soon?

Looks like if they do, this could affect stock price as the Nevada debacle was the overriding reason of market uncertainty for the past 6 months...

Again, this tesla aquisition deal looking short changed for Solarcity investors every passing day...
 
  • Informative
Reactions: GoTslaGo

doggusfluffy

Closed
Jun 1, 2014
979
428
Seattle
http://www.bizjournals.com/buffalo/...tate-could-be-negotiating-with-tesla-for.html

SolarCity's subsidies include a stipulation that New York has an exclusive 120-day negotiating window if the company decides to build a new factory with Silevo technology – the same technology touted by Musk as giving SolarCity a distinct competitive advantage. SolarCity has declined to speculate on a second factory, but acknowledged that even at full capacity the Buffalo plant won't produce enough panels to meet demand.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

About Us

Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.

Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


SUPPORT TMC
Top