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SolarCity (SCTY)

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Thanks futureproof I will check it out. Really enjoyed your commentary on Grrenberg. Made me chuckle couple of times :) Please keep it coming.

Separately, in the Alternative Energy thread, a risk of what would happen to SCTY's financing if a recession were to happen came up. I posted some notes there. Anyone interested in further evaluating scty's risks might find it useful. Check it out here.
 
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Tslafan123... my answer to recession argument... what stocks become more valuable in a recession? UTILITY STOCKS. What else becomes more valuable during a recession? PRINCIPAL PRESERVING VEHICLES i.e. highly rated asset backed securities and bonds... BINGO... that seems to point directly to Solarcity!!! Solarcity will go up in value during a recession. Think about it, more and more money will come in Solarcity ABS for principal preservation, more and more MWs will get installed, then more and more Solarcity ABS will go out.... it's a positive reinforcing cycle.

What is the last bill to be not get paid in a household, even as someone is being pulled out of their foreclosed house? THE UTILITY BILL, and if that utility bill reduces your traditional utility bill(i.e. Solarcity bill) it will be paid before the traditional bill...

And if that PV system was purchased ($0 down loan), then you are stuck paying that debt, and if you can't pay that debt and default, then say bye-bye to your credit, not to say the foreclosure didn't demolish it already. At lease/ppa doesn't hurt in debt default. Which makes it more attractive when cash is tight, or a major real estate bust happens again. So, it looks like a recession would push more people toward lease/ppa and actually accelerate Solarcity's growth.
 
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Tslafan123, thanks...


If we want to really assess the risks, lets really assess the risks. The pink elephant in the room to me is net metering. No one has really given any consideration to the ramifications of net metering going away. If we want to be talking about freedom from the utility, then where does solar stand when very little of what you produce, you get to use because no one is going to pay you for it or give you credit. You've got a 4 KW system and at the end of the day you use less of a kilowatt and the rest is gone and what are you left with... good old Mr. Monopoly Utility and his more expensive, dirty energy. Lets really throw a wet blanket on solar. What happens if we do go into a recession? Do you think utilities will continue net metering if they are losing money to the compounding installs that are currently happening? No, they will charge you handsomely for "cost shifting" to non-solar users. Like Ray Liotta in Good Fellas, they'll have their hand extended, nice and flat, and say "eff-you, pay me!" And you, the person that owns the system has to do it. Where are your savings now? Hey, lease/ppa is no different. Where are your savings now? And if you don't believe me, look at what's happening in Arizona, Colorado, and California... Arizona being the most aggressive right now changed their net metering policy last November, Colorado is having a heated review soon, and California has delayed net metering actions for another year... and other states are sure to pop up as more money becomes at stake.

Bottom line, if your PV system is tied to the traditional grid right now have no guarantee you will get any benefit, it doesn't matter if you own,lease, buy energy, whatever... the only advantage of lease/ppa you don't have to pay for the system if everything goes belly up on net metering. If you own the system, you own it. What?... you think you're going to be able to go to the company that sold it to you and say, look, I'm not getting diddly squat on savings, take it back. Nope, you bought it. See ya, wouldn't want to be ya.

The only way for the future of every single PV system owner, seller, lease/ppa company, you name it is low cost energy storage. That's it. If no one brings that up in any conversation of risks, then they being completely dishonest and aren't worth their weight in salt. Period, end of story. Tell me what the future of solar will look like without energy storage, and I'll show you about 12 do-it-yourself types with a PV system daisy chaining a dozen lead acid batteries in their garage. Back to the 1970's and Carter pointing to the top of the White House proud of his array. Like jumping into cold water, the industry will shrivel.

Who's getting ready for low cost energy storage? Sure, there are the various natural gas generators, li-ion battery, lead acid, fuel cell, etc.. but I have yet to see an energy storage solution that is scalable and cheap that can meet potential market demand. If we're going to see gigawatts of PV in America soon, who has a product that the masses of future PV owners can afford? I can't think of any.... oh, wait, that's right, TESLA DOES. Right now, no other company is creating a cost effective, scalable solution to this massive, massive problem soon to hit the Solar industry doorstep. Hey, I've looked. I wanted to invest in whomever that company or group of companies would be. I didn't find it anywhere... except Tesla. And who is closely aligned with Tesla to take advantage of this... SOLARCITY. I have yet to see a serious competitor on this front and that is very sad. However, it makes me very happy as an investor because they are doing the RISK MANAGEMENT required to keep the business growing and deal with the fight that is rapidly coming with the utilities(and their politicians, media personalities, and anyone that benefits from them staying profitable).

This brewing fight with the utilities is not just about Solarcity, but about the entire industry. So if you have any sense whatsoever to protect your capital, might want to rethink where the FUTURE OF THE INDUSTRY is going and who is going there and act accordingly and it's not about the great rise of $0 down loans and the tragic fall of leases either... it's about who can provide the cheaper cleaner energy. What company or companies you think will survive the utility gauntlet 5, 10, 20 years from now and continue to be the ones with the best METHOD getting to the cheaper, cleaner energy is where you should place your bets. I know where I fall.
 
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One benefit to leasing... not having to pay increased property taxes on the value of your home. With an increased value of 15-20k and 2% tax rate, that's an extra $300-$400/yr that eats in to your savings. The installers we got a quote from did not mention this or include it in their calculations... perhaps some would argue that is unethical as well.

In any case, I think there is clearly demand for leasing as well as outright ownership and buyers will choose what's best for their situation. When the rebates disappear, that will exacerbate the effect of the property tax increases as well, if system prices don't come down significantly.
 
Here are some very smart funds that did the same hand wringing that we did before they put their money into SCTY:

Top 10 Mutual Fund Holdings by Shares Held
Name Reporting Date Total Holdings Sorted in descending order. Position Value Outstanding
Shares Owned
Fidelity OTC Portfolio (i) 01/31/14 1.2M $75.9M 1.37%
Fidelity Contrafund Inc (i) 01/31/14 777.9K $47.2M 0.85%
Blackrock Capital Appreciation Fund (i) 12/31/13 636.1K $38.6M 0.70%
Vanguard Small-Cap Index Fund (i) 12/31/13 539.0K $32.7M 0.59%
Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Fund (i) 12/31/13 485.9K $29.5M 0.53%
Lord Abbett Developing Growth Fund (i) 10/31/13 468.0K $28.4M 0.51%
Claymore ETF Tr 2-Guggenheim Solar ETF (i) 02/28/14 424.8K $25.8M 0.46%
Vanguard Small-Cap Growth Index Fund (i) 12/31/13 412.2K $25.0M 0.45%
Metropolitan Ser Fd-Blackrock Capital Appreciation Portfolio (i) 12/31/13 315.2K $19.1M 0.34%
Laudus Tr-Laudus/Growth Investors U.S. Large Cap Growth Fd (i) 12/31/13 292.0K $17.7M 0.32%
 
One benefit to leasing... not having to pay increased property taxes on the value of your home. With an increased value of 15-20k and 2% tax rate, that's an extra $300-$400/yr that eats in to your savings. The installers we got a quote from did not mention this or include it in their calculations... perhaps some would argue that is unethical as well.

In any case, I think there is clearly demand for leasing as well as outright ownership and buyers will choose what's best for their situation. When the rebates disappear, that will exacerbate the effect of the property tax increases as well, if system prices don't come down significantly.

This is absolutely not true. Solar systems will increase the value of your property but WILL NOT INCREASE PROPERTY TAXES. E.g.:

Will my property tax base increase? No. Despite the fact that your property value will increase, there is legislation that prevents your property taxes from increasing from installing solar componets. In Nov of 1980, the people passed Proposition 7 which redefined solar energy systems. No longer were they considered "newly constructed" for the purposes of property taxes. California Revenue and Taxation code, codified this change in section 73.



http://www.apgsolar.com/faq.html
 
This is absolutely not true. Solar systems will increase the value of your property but WILL NOT INCREASE PROPERTY TAXES. E.g.:

Will my property tax base increase? No. Despite the fact that your property value will increase, there is legislation that prevents your property taxes from increasing from installing solar componets. In Nov of 1980, the people passed Proposition 7 which redefined solar energy systems. No longer were they considered "newly constructed" for the purposes of property taxes. California Revenue and Taxation code, codified this change in section 73.



http://www.apgsolar.com/faq.html

Thanks... looks like that is the case in CA and perhaps others as well, but it is not true here in OH.
 
In any case, I think there is clearly demand for leasing as well as outright ownership and buyers will choose what's best for their situation. When the rebates disappear, that will exacerbate the effect of the property tax increases as well, if system prices don't come down significantly.

That is an interesting point with the home value implications. Just keeps me coming back to what is the real value of a PV system? Is is best to own or to lease? Do you want to be in the energy business or do you want to pay for someone else to be? What are the true maintenance costs OVER 30 YEARS?

When you purchase a PV system, you do get every KW for yourself after the payback period. That is true. But now you are in business relationship with the traditional utility. If you don't think so, what do you call net metering? In the beginning, net metering wasn't a big deal for utilities, but now as millions of people are getting PV systems, it becomes a big deal and utilities are much bigger, with a lot more cash and power then you. If they don't want to pay you that retail rate, they will try and find a way to not to do it. Let's look at this over the next 10,20,30 years. Do you really think you're going to get the same retail price on your KWs that you enjoy today? Is this something you understand from your PV installer before they put it in? The first thing they should ask you when considering buy is DO YOU WANT TO BE IN THE ENERGY BUSINESS? Because you're going to lose money fast if you think you're going to command retail prices on your energy production in the coming years.

At least in a lease/ppa specificially with Solarcity, they are take on the problems of being in the energy business. If net metering goes, they have a deep interest in finding a solution to getting you cheaper, cleaner energy then your current utility provider. THEY have the EXACT same interest as you do. So, they are forced to bring you a solution to net metering and every other issue that comes down the pike 10,20,30 years down the road.

When you buy, what will the value of your system be 30 years down the road? How many random things could happen to your system down the road? Does your warranty cover LABOR COSTS of if something under warranty needs to be replaced? The average American sells their own after 11 years. If we are talking about MASS MARKET, MILLIONS OF INSTALLATIONS, the we must use the average and that means over a 25 year warranty ownership will change once, and then the follow on owner after that will be stuck with no warranty and an well aged system with degraded production. And when you move, do you get another crack at the 30% ITC if you put on a system on your new house? Nope. Well you could just bring it with you. But that will cost MORE than they system is worth. Now lets say your system sucks after 30 years and you want the latest and greatest. Got to pay to take it off and pay for someone to put the new system on. Again, tax incentives are no longer a benefit. What... you think you're going to be able to recoup a little and sell it on Ebay? Good luck with that. Hey, it's best to buy a house since the value goes up on average over time. It's good to buy a car, you can always sell it and get a new one. BUT, you can't just replace a PV system, and if you do it's damn expensive. It's a MULTI-DECADE purchase, that NEVER appreciates in value, and DOES NOT HAVE RESALE VALUE. The parts might come down in price, but the LABOR COSTS never do. Do the math, how much labor costs will you have to pay over a 30 year peiod, especially if you're a second owner, and definitely if you're taking on a system that's at the end of it's warranty period. In the case of PV system, given these issues, lease makes the most sense in the real world with all it's uncertainties over multiple decades.
When you lease/ppa you buy the energy that you will be using. This will be the same no matter what technology comes out, what new policies come out, or what the weather turns out to be. I see solarcity will make sure you get that cheaper, cleaner electricity despite all problems that will occur over the next decades because their interests are aligned with yours. They will take on net metering for you with energy storage products. They will take on policy, they will take on the elements, so you can live your own life and do what you need to do to better your situation. Worrying about your PV system is the last of your concerns.

Now what is the value of that service Solarcity provides? That's the magic question. Given everything that comes with being in the energy business and making a multi-decade commitment to that, I think it's just as hard for you to estimate that value as it is for you to do with ownership of your own system. However, I do know I have only so much time in my life to live it, and if I see a SERVICE that will provide me with cheaper, cleaner energy for decades WITH THE PEACE OF MIND of knowing I will not have to worry about things no matter what happens in my life... then I might be willing to pay AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME ABSENT CHANGES IN NET METERING a premium compared to purchasing. And if net metering changes for the worse and SolarCity offers me a battery for back up still providing me with cheaper cleaner energy, where ownership fails, then I will really know I made a fantastic financial decision over the long haul.
 
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Thanks... looks like that is the case in CA and perhaps others as well, but it is not true here in OH.

I think that most states offer property tax exemptions (and soon all of them will if they don't already).

Once again, I think that you are incorrect about Ohio:

Tax Exemptions
The good new is that Ohio does offer two tax exemptions. You save between 5.5% and 7% right off the bat via a statewide sales tax exemption on solar power equipment. Even better, the property tax exemption saves you from paying taxes on your home’s big increase in value (we’ll get to that). That saves you money year, after year, after year.


http://www.solarpowerrocks.com/ohio/
 
Sounds good on the surface, but do you still pay the same property tax that you did before you put the system on? How is this really a benefit on reducing my current tax liability? And what are the possible ramifications of system depreciation have on value of my home in 10 years? Do they/will they base home value on my energy savings history or is the calculation of value based solely on the fact I have a PV system on my roof? Does the great big jump in home value stay the same even if the system itself depreciates?

i don't know about you, but cash flow is king in my household. Money in and money out, where is my balance at the end of the day, month, year... If it doesn't matter if I lease or own with respect to my tax liability, then why is it better to finance a system as opposed to forgoing a new debt load while at the same time reducing my home operational expenses through purchasing power or leasing a system in this regard?

Hey, I do like all the sales tax relief (in addition to the 30%ITC), but those just seem enticements to get me to purchase. At the end of the day, I still have to finance. And even more so, I still have to pay exactly the same utility bill amount (or more), for 3-4 years. Since there will be changes with net metering over those next 3-4 years, how am I going to ensure I get the savings promised down road after payback? And might my monthly utility bill actually go up in addition to having to pay my loan back during that time when net metering changes?
 
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SCTY has just gone from $88 to $58 in just a few short trading days; which is a 34% loss. If we were to hit a hard recession in the near future I wouldn't be surprised to see SCTY trading in the teens again. Yet, I read about people who are buying July $100 call options...seriously?

My response in post #26:
"If you look at prior "post-earnings drops" most have seen a 36% fall in share price from the high. However, in just a year and a half, the stock has gone from about $9 to currently about $62. I have a feeling most people on this forum are long term investors with a core share holding, so the currently volatility (although nerve-racking) is not of primary concern. Long term stock appreciation is."

Why solar stocks could heat up - CNBC

Above is some fodder for the short term long traders out there... (once again, that guy at the end this clip demonstrates the lack of understanding about Tesla and Solarcity "storing energy from PV on the car" and "5.8b market cap only making 300m per year." Wake up and do the research!!!)
I, for one, despise short term playing (long or short). My strategy is accumulation. Front loaded these past couple weeks...

Adding fuel to these technical aficionados, I'm going to be bold and predict we'll see a nice price spike after they announce/close their second ABS at $100mln+... could be next week or the week after that... but I suck at timing. I hate the stress. Much rather just buy when I can.

...and just as shorts get worried, they send out the ambulance chasers.... Marty McFly must have loaned them the Delorean to take a trip to the future because this class goes all the way up to November 18, 2014! They need to fire their cut and paste guy... What a joke.
Pomerantz Law Firm Announces the Filing of a Class Action Against SolarCity Corporation and Certain Officers -- SCTY | MENAFN.com
 
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Here is a very interesting video from 2 years ago. It's only about 5mins. Surprisingly many of things discussed in the video are the same issues many here see as issues/risks today. Anti-dumping tariffs, scale back of incentives. Despite all these risks the company has grown remarkably well.

 
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It amazes me how much contradiction I read in some "contrarian" voices out there on Solarcity. One minute Solarcity is unethical, the next minute they are a great company, then ripping off people, then a great long term investment... you'd be hard pressed to find more flip-flops on a packed Florida beach during spring break...

For all those that don't know Solarcity sells systems, sells power purchase agreements, and also leases PV systems. Not just a leasing company as some might want you to believe. They also work on the commercial(i.e. google, walmart) and utility(ie. Hawaii utility, SCE) As a matter of fact, SCE just started to pay PPA agreement with them this week... they must be pretty uneducated on solar, I guess...

As far as pricing on sales, ppa, and leases... they all VARY FROM STATE TO STATE, UTILITY COMPANY AREA. To insinuate everyone pays the same rate/kw is absolutely wrong and laughable Using single examples to represent an entire company with 100K customers across 14 states, is less then credible. Come on, really? If you really want to help people from losing their shirts... oh wait, you're just giving your opinion now... then you would also point out what an actual Solarcity quote and compare it with a competitor... oh yeah, and referencing a competitor as a source on how bad solarcity rips off people doesn't seem to pass the sniff test on reliability either. But might I digress...

Here is what I think SolarCity is and how I see they'll be around for a long time to come. By all means, poke big nasty holes through it....


Solarcity is a START UP ENERGY/UTILITY HYBRID COMPANY aspiring to carve out its share of a transforming trillion dollar energy market.

The first phase of this transformation to solar is the PV + grid. PV+grid customers are long term, built-in decade long loyalty predictable long term cash revenue. Once they have that PV system generating electrons, they’re less likely to change “brands” for decades, if ever. Therefore, in a massively underserved market (42 million roofs just in Solarcity’s addressable market), it is vitally important to move fast, because competitors will lock their future customers basically forever. So, it’s market share at all costs in the current PV+grid business. Expanding market share quickly, requires upfront capital(a lot of it) to lock in those long term, predictable revenue streams now. If you go the “profitability now” route, you will fail to grow fast enough to obtain that new customer since someone else will already have gotten to them. Since the PV+grid system is bolted down to the roof, trying to persuade them to take it off to pay to put on yours is highly unlikely. Good luck with that. Every customer you don’t reach, is a customer gone for essentially decades. Therefore, survival is dependent on a massive build out NOW while the market is extremely under-penetrated. Given the competitive advantage of rapid build out, the promise of lucrative long term revenue streams becomes highly probable. So, foregoing current profits by spending large amounts of raised capital to build out PV+grid capacity (in the current underserved market) vastly outweighs the short term gains of higher profit from slow growth, low CAPEX. In fact, it is a no brainer decision. So, if Solarcity can sustain growth through being CASH FLOW POSITIVE for many, many years they can possibility achieve full market saturation and massive profits in the decades to come. At the point of full market saturation, Solarcity evolves into a fully mature, low margin, high profit, dividend yielding, stable, low volatility BLUE CHIP ENERGY/UTILITY HYBRID STOCK.

Along the way to becoming a blue chip energy-utilty stock, Solarcity has to transform to meet the challenges of changing market conditions. As this high capital, time intensive, constantly growing “build out” happens, Solarcity has to be always thinking about the future in how energy will be delivered to the end user or lose market share. What will be the methods(tech advancements) of how Solarcity will be able to keep achieving cheaper, cleaner energy?
After PV+grid, is the PV+storage phase. With Tesla energy storage partnership, it’s hard for me to find a Solarcity competitor better positioned to make this transition. Even if Tesla sells to other competitors, Solarcity has already had YEARS of working directly with Tesla in PV+storage to get ahead in R&D and implementation. Therefore, I see Solarcity continuing to gain market share over everyone else for years to come during PV+storage expansion.
Beyond that, it’s anyone’s guess on what that next commercialized tech “phase” will look like. However, I could see it involving a wide network of solar energy storage, like an internet of energy, where DG production can be bought, sold, and delivered around the world. And in this case, I’ve already heard Bob Kelly state that Solarcity “4.0” will be a company in the monitization and management of customer energy… so read into that what you like.
 
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It amazes me how much contradiction I read in some "contrarian" voices out there on Solarcity. One minute Solarcity is unethical, the next minute they are a great company, then ripping off people, then a great long term investment... you'd be hard pressed to find more flip-flops on a packed Florida beach during spring break...

The reason why people have problems with SCTY's approach is that they use the cheapest panels they can find, yet they value those panels way above average to get max government rebates. Personally, I think that's unethical, but again, it's all going to change in 2017 when that revenue stream is eliminated for SCTY.

SCTY just bounced off the $60 mark. Good time for you long-term investors to get in. I'm also a long-term investor, but I see SCTY trading in the teens LONG-TERM.
 
Mod Note: This is the first time that I've had the chance to sit down and read through this thread and I have to say there's quite a few posts with a snippy tone to them. This is Tesla Motors Club and not SolarCity club so we're tolerating the discussion topic....if it gets out of hand I'm going to feel like stomping on it. Please don't make me put my big boots on.....
 
The reason why people have problems with SCTY's approach is that they use the cheapest panels they can find, yet they value those panels way above average to get max government rebates.

With all due respect to killer_model_s, I disagree. My experience using SolarCity to install a leased system on my house led me to a different conclusion. As the panels they were going to install were off-loaded from the truck in front of my house, I photographed the back side sticker, which clearly defined the manufacturer (Chinese) and rated kWh performance. It was a notch above what SolarCity spec'ed in my contract.

I don't own a PV system; I'm buying electricity from a second utility -- and yes, they know exactly how to price that electricity inclusive of their hard costs and installation costs. All they intend to do is beat out the local utility (monopoly) rates by an adequate margin (with planned price increases all factored in) to show me the savings, year after year.

Buying a system and looking for the point of ROI is different.
 
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