SolarCity solar installation

[simplesolar]

I am in the solar business, feel free to ask questions. The reason solar city pushes prepaid lease is because as a business when we own the solar asset we can depreciate it 100%, while a homeowner owning the system can not. Solar city only pushes leases and artificially inflate their purchase price to make all the leasing look better because that is the most profitable component of solar. Not the install itself, but the collecting lease payment for 20 years. Whenever you can purchase the system do it. Even borrowing money at 10%-15% from credit card will make sense if you do the math.

 

[purplewalt]

I am in the solar business, feel free to ask questions. The reason solar city pushes prepaid lease is because as a business when we own the solar asset we can depreciate it 100%, while a homeowner owning the system can not. Solar city only pushes leases and artificially inflate their purchase price to make all the leasing look better because that is the most profitable component of solar. Not the install itself, but the collecting lease payment for 20 years. Whenever you can purchase the system do it. Even borrowing money at 10%-15% from credit card will make sense if you do the math.

I have started my own preliminary investigation with Solar City.
A couple of quick questions:
** Why can a business depreciate/amortize an asset (PV panels and system), and a homeowner cannot? What if I self-incorporated: would that establish the legal entity to get the full tax consequences of purchasing and owning the system?
** I have three-phase power to my house. Solar City said they could only do two-phase power installations, the three-phase power was a "major road-block" to them. I sent them data/information for three-phase inverters (colleague at work found the information), have yet to hear back from them (poor follow-through and communication). I do have questions about the temperature range requirements for the inverter, as it gets very hot in my garage.
** Per some comments from other individuals (in England and Europe), panels are sometimes mounted on other roof orientations than South or West. My colleague also tells me that cooler temperature panels are more efficient than panels that are getting hot. What is the real story about both orientation and temperature build-up vs. panel efficiency?
** What is optimum number of percentage for installing a system? Why would I want a system designed for 80 to 85% of anticipated usage (their initial design) vs. 100% (got them to re-organize their initial layout adding panels)? What if I upsized the system to be 115%, would there be any benefit to that?

My observation is Solar City was more interested in having access to my roof, and them owning the system, than fully laying-out and exploring/explaining all the Options.
I am not the expert: they are.
Seemed more apt @ cookie-cutter designed system, instead of custom designed for individual requirements.

 

[derekt75]

I have started my own preliminary investigation with Solar City.
A couple of quick questions:
** Why can a business depreciate/amortize an asset (PV panels and system), and a homeowner cannot? What if I self-incorporated: would that establish the legal entity to get the full tax consequences of purchasing and owning the system?
** I have three-phase power to my house. Solar City said they could only do two-phase power installations, the three-phase power was a "major road-block" to them. I sent them data/information for three-phase inverters (colleague at work found the information), have yet to hear back from them (poor follow-through and communication). I do have questions about the temperature range requirements for the inverter, as it gets very hot in my garage.
** Per some comments from other individuals (in England and Europe), panels are sometimes mounted on other roof orientations than South or West. My colleague also tells me that cooler temperature panels are more efficient than panels that are getting hot. What is the real story about both orientation and temperature build-up vs. panel efficiency?
** What is optimum number of percentage for installing a system? Why would I want a system designed for 80 to 85% of anticipated usage (their initial design) vs. 100% (got them to re-organize their initial layout adding panels)? What if I upsized the system to be 115%, would there be any benefit to that?

My observation is Solar City was more interested in having access to my roof, and them owning the system, than fully laying-out and exploring/explaining all the Options.
I am not the expert: they are.
Seemed more apt @ cookie-cutter designed system, instead of custom designed for individual requirements.

I have panels facing NorthEast, but my roof pitch is only 18°. They generate nearly 80% of the power that the ones facing SouthWest do.
(NE: 7209 kWh / yr guaranteed from a 6.24 kW system; SW: 7410 kWh / yr guaranteed from a 5.06 kW system)
It surprised me it wasn't a bigger problem, but I guess it isn't.
Yes, cooler is better for the efficiency of the panels and for the inverter, but again, it's not a big deal. and orientation matters more than heat (better to have South panels that are hot than North panels that are cool). I imagine cooler is also better for their reliability, but if you're leasing, reliability is less important than if you own.

I'd be surprised if a hot garage is an issue. My inverters are on the SW side of my house in direct sunlight when the air is often in the 100s in the summer. I imagine your garage environment is much friendlier.

In NorCal, PG&E charges us higher rates the more power we use. It makes a lot of financial sense to use solar to get rid of the $0.35/kWh energy, but solar is currently a bit of a financial wash compared to the bottom tier of $0.13/kWh. Furthermore, I don't think PG&E sends a check to us if we are net producers over the course of the year, so there's not much incentive for us to produce more than we use.


For me, the prepaid lease made the most financial sense. Owning was significantly more costly than a prepaid 20 yr lease, and SolarCity is responsible for maintaining my equipment.

 

[Lloyd]

To give everyone an idea what the parts cost for this system:

Panels are available for $200 each = $2400
Inverter = $1500
Racking = $800
Misc parts = $500
Total $5200

The rest is Labor.

You could install this yourself! There's no requirement for monitoring, and once the system is running there is very little maintenance if any. Elon would say "Its not Rocket Science"

Here is a copy of my permit in case you want to do your own. Drawn in Word:

 

[rage_777]

(We'll prob get moved to a solar thread, since we've gotten off-topic ... but hey! even I'm subject to mod rules .)

Kevin, I don't pay anything for anyone to run my system. It's set up, I monitor system and panel output online, my power supplier (PG&E) tied it into their grid and factor the power received into my bill (which results in money to me). If I have a problem, it's under warranty and I'll contact Coldwell to fix a panel or a microinverter, as necessary.

-------

Here's my online dashboard:

View attachment 27337

Bonnie,

Do you have the Enphase system? I have the Enphase and that is what the Enlighten website looks like. I didn't go with SolarCity either, because I didn't like the way they gave me a quote (over the internet). I like that the company I went with, came out and actually looked at my roof and calculated whether or not I would have shade, etc.

I bought my panels (15 of them), but I zero my electricity bill every year since I have had them. I think I might have to pay some money this year, because it has been too cloudy this summer.

 

[kevin99]

** What is optimum number of percentage for installing a system? Why would I want a system designed for 80 to 85% of anticipated usage (their initial design) vs. 100% (got them to re-organize their initial layout adding panels)? What if I upsized the system to be 115%, would there be any benefit to that?

purplewalt, I just had a conversation with the SCTY sales rep yesterday to discuss the same question of mine.

Currently my system is sized at the 90% usage. i.e. on average I will get a small monthly bill from PG&E.

Between SCTY and me, I pay a fix monthly rate to them at the fixed $0.19 /kwh (I choose the option by paying about $1,600 so the rate is locked).

Between PGE and me, the electricity produced during the day will go to the grid and earn a credit, could go as high as $0.30+. PGE charges me by the actual usage, including the Model S charging at midnight rate rate ($0.04) according the E9 plan.

The reason not going for a bigger system is you will have to buy up all the electricity the panel produces at the $0.19 rate. If there is excessive electricity you earn on the long term basis, PGE gives you back the much lower rate of credit ( i was told @ $.06/kwh). The $0.30+ you earned is only for short term fluctuation and balancing the off peak usage.

In the future if more usage is needed, like buying the Model X, they would most likely install a second system, as the warranty length could be different and not a clean cut to just add panels.

Anyone understands better can further clarify this.

 

[JPP]

Purplewat--FWIW, my system will have panels facing east-west only. They do appropriate design to compensate (add panels) and also they install a device on the panels to do some kind of load balancing depending on what panels/which side of the house are getting more photons.

 

[drinkerofkoolaid]

Does Solar City give incentives to Tesla owners?

 

[simplesolar]

I have started my own preliminary investigation with Solar City.
A couple of quick questions:
** Why can a business depreciate/amortize an asset (PV panels and system), and a homeowner cannot? What if I self-incorporated: would that establish the legal entity to get the full tax consequences of purchasing and owning the system?
** I have three-phase power to my house. Solar City said they could only do two-phase power installations, the three-phase power was a "major road-block" to them. I sent them data/information for three-phase inverters (colleague at work found the information), have yet to hear back from them (poor follow-through and communication). I do have questions about the temperature range requirements for the inverter, as it gets very hot in my garage.
** Per some comments from other individuals (in England and Europe), panels are sometimes mounted on other roof orientations than South or West. My colleague also tells me that cooler temperature panels are more efficient than panels that are getting hot. What is the real story about both orientation and temperature build-up vs. panel efficiency?
** What is optimum number of percentage for installing a system? Why would I want a system designed for 80 to 85% of anticipated usage (their initial design) vs. 100% (got them to re-organize their initial layout adding panels)? What if I upsized the system to be 115%, would there be any benefit to that?

My observation is Solar City was more interested in having access to my roof, and them owning the system, than fully laying-out and exploring/explaining all the Options.
I am not the expert: they are.
Seemed more apt @ cookie-cutter designed system, instead of custom designed for individual requirements.

If you self incorporate you technically can own the system and pay your company electricity. Downfall is when you get audited by the IRS, it is very obvious what you are doing. However, if you have many people paying you electricity bill like what solar city is doing then you are technically running a power company and is legit. I have a investment group that does exactly what solar city is doing to provide leasing for my clients.

3 phase is doable. They are just lazy. Solar city wants cookie cutter jobs so they can get in and out in one day.

Mounting in different orientation effects the efficiency of the panel.

Optimum percentage is dictated by what you are trying to achieve. Most people design a system for 80-85% because you don't want to over generate unless your utility company provides an incentive to do so. Over here in southern california edison, we get credited 3 cents per kwh on a regular basis and get dinged 34 cents per kwh in the highest tier. Makes no financial sense to do so.

Lastly that is exactly the difference between our company vs solar city. We provide custom solutions to each of our clients to maximize out put. Solar city wants to get in and out and collect power payments from you.

 

[TheTalkingMule]

Lastly that is exactly the difference between our company vs solar city. We provide custom solutions to each of our clients to maximize out put. Solar city wants to get in and out and collect power payments from you.

In fairness, isn't it more efficient to cut cookies with a cookie cutter than a knife? SolarCity is set up to do as many quality installs as possible and that requires standardization. You can have an A, B, C, D, E, or F. Which would you like? This is probably why it cost nothing to install in Germany and still costs a ton here in the US. We want to bring 4 guys out to your house and do sequences of designs, etc.

IMO it's a function of their unemployment rate being at 4% and having universal healthcare, the incentive is there to do it as efficiently as possible.

 

[JPP]

Not sure about the cookie cutter concept with SC. I had SC here today for day 1 of a 3 day install- 16 kW system. I am installing over 60 panels in a complicated arrangement on multiple roof surfaces facing east-west, with wiring run into an attic to eliminate conduit on the roof. They have carefully worked on the inverter layout, disconnects and load centers. They are being very careful and compulsive on the esthetics of the equipment layout, and worked with me to get the best looking arrangement and still meet all of the local codes. They have reviewed wiring and conduit sizes with their engineers to handle some unusual conditions in the field. I had between 6 and 12 installers depending on the time and need (men & women) with 2 supervisors who were compulsive about safety, not hurried, and always teaching the newer members. Oh, and, BTW, SC electricians installed 2 NEMA 14-50 (1 in each garage) a few months ago and gave me a big discount on the work (they had to fish #6 copper 3+1 'romex' 50 and 75 feet respectively into an attic and down inside existing drywall) since I was going with them for PV solar. So far, I have no complaints. More news tomorrow (day 2 of 3).

 

[kevin99]

Does Solar City give incentives to Tesla owners?

Not that I know of. They do have a referral program that the new customer get a few hundreds off if referred. You can pm anyone here to send you an referral.

 

[kevin99]

haha just turn on the solar service today! And now I am a solar city investor as well.

 

[JPP]

Follow up--install finished my PV install (16kW--63 panels) about 3 weeks ago. Had to wait for local building inspector to sign off-waited about 3-4 days. Then needed to wait for PG&E to swap out old SmartMeter for new Smart(er)Meter for net metering--completed last Wednesday. However I 'cheated' and fired up the system about 2 weeks ago--at least I could drive the meter to 0 kW for a few hours but no back feed. Now I can go to PGE.com and see that I am back feeding and getting credit, and can go to SolarCity.com and see my hourly production. It's been nice and sunny, so I have been generating about 70kW per day. Fabulous!

Now I've called PG&E to change rates to the new EV rate--of course it will take 1-2 billing cycles to move from E1 to EV-A (what???-to key something into their computer, or to grab another 1-2 months of excess $$). And because it is tied into the EV itself, they had to log all of my EV info (make, model, VIN) and the level of charging equipment (in my case, 240V 50A NEMA 14-50, level 2). They now will have their Building Department review the application to be sure that I am not damaging any PG&E infrastructure with my EV charging (absurd-I have relatively new 400A service on a 5 year old home, and PG&E had to review and approve the infrastructure when the PV solar plans/drawings were submitted).

 

[kevin99]

Yeah it is fun to see how much the energy graph the solar panel produce, and the PGE usage. Certainly a big advancement in a "boring" field.

Our very first electricity produced by our humble system:

 

[napabill]

However I 'cheated' and fired up the system about 2 weeks ago--at least I could drive the meter to 0 kW for a few hours but no back feed. Now I can go to PGE.com and see that I am back feeding and getting credit, and can go to SolarCity.com and see my hourly production. It's been nice and sunny, so I have been generating about 70kW per day. Fabulous!

Any downside to turning the inverter on my system prior to PG&E blessing the system and swapping the meter? Won't burn my house down or anything? And I just flip the breakers on the panel and turn on the inverter, correct?

 

[astrotoy]

For a reliability data point, Solar City did my installation in March, 2009 - so I have 4 1/2 years experience with the system (36 panels). So far, the only issue was a recall of the inverters by the manufacturer and Solar City did the swap of the two inverters - maybe a year into the life of the system. Nothing else. I do have a guy who cleans our gutters twice a year and he also washes off the panels. Not done by Solar City. I bought my system, not a lease. The system generates a little over 10,000 kwH annually. So far no loss in the rate of output. I just switched over to the new PGE EV rate, so I generate (and sell back at peak times) and mostly use at night (charging the Model S) at the cheap rates. I use enough electricity that the EV rate works out cheaper for me than the E9A rate. I didn't plan to buy an electric car when I got the system, but one of Solar City's selling points was that Elon Musk (founder of Paypal!) was on their board. Little did I know that I should have asked for the Elon Musk frequent buyer discount card. Saving up for my SpaceX rocket.

 

[lorih]

Has anyone here gotten the Solar City option for battery backup to go completely off the grid. I know there have been rumblings about this in the media, but I don't know if they have implemented yet. Anyone know?

 

[derekt75]

Has anyone here gotten the Solar City option for battery backup to go completely off the grid. I know there have been rumblings about this in the media, but I don't know if they have implemented yet. Anyone know?

Why would you?
On the plus side, you could still have power when the grid is down.
On the minus side, it would cost noticeably more, and isn't as good for the environment as going grid-tied.


napabill:
if everything is installed properly, I don't think there's any downside to turning things on; after the inspection, you'll be asked to turn things on yourself, so why not get a head start? I think the only issue is that if things aren't installed properly. probably a low chance, but maybe not one you feel like taking?

 

[lorih]

Why would you?
On the plus side, you could still have power when the grid is down.
On the minus side, it would cost noticeably more, and isn't as good for the environment as going grid-tied.

Yes, I want to get off the grid. I'm am looking into it for my mother. She lives in a part of the country that has storms and often looses power. Sometimes for 4-7 days. Not the best thing for a senior citizen living alone.