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Sold my Model S after 5.5 years...moving on

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SO16

Active Member
Feb 25, 2016
3,067
9,594
MI
We (including me) would gladly support them if they just told us what is happening. And if they couldn't tell us because of commercial reasons, I would also be fine if at the service center they would just signal me with something like: 'we are aware that there is an issue with your car, please give us some time, we are worki

Yes it would be great if Tesla could be up front about it. But to think that anyone at Tesla would be willing to give you a wink, secret handshake or admit fault about this if explicitly told not to....you’re dreaming. First they would be fired. Second, depending on who they told, it would get out, etc.

This needs to come from the top.
 
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Chaserr

Hyperactive Hyperdrive
Sep 5, 2017
2,664
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And block the user trying to pick fights with you. He's an agitator that doesn't know how to properly assess his fury at Tesla, so he turns it against Tesla's victims. Nothing good will come from entertaining his colorful if vaguely homophobic commentary.
 
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johnman10

Owner of S??D
Nov 11, 2015
120
465
Netherlands
Yes it would be great if Tesla could be up front about it. But to think that anyone at Tesla would be willing to give you a wink, secret handshake or admit fault about this if explicitly told not to....you’re dreaming. First they would be fired. Second, depending on who they told, it would get out, etc.

This needs to come from the top.
Oh well. We already witness the reaction from the top for almost a year now aren't we? The signal from the top after a year of silence cannot be misinterpreted by any of us
 

johnman10

Owner of S??D
Nov 11, 2015
120
465
Netherlands
Have there been any Tesla fires lately?
Would love to hear this from Tesla itself. But wait. Tesla did not do this to reduce any fire risk. This was done to protect our batteries under warranty. But on the other hand Tesla announced this protection as they continued to investigate a fire incident no?
Tesla will never admit what you say...at least not willingly. NHTSA and other relevant organizations will hopefully reach that conclusion soon enough
 
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Mike Smith

Active Member
Jul 2, 2016
2,221
30,079
Toronto
Tesla's batteries are NOT under official investigation by NHTSA. All they are doing is reviewing a default petition, which they are required to do by law. They have not decided to open an official investigation. If they did decide an investigation was needed, the first step would be a Preliminary Evaluation, which as of now they haven't deemed necessary. That would be followed by an Engineering Analysis to determine if there is an actual problem.

As of now there is no indication that NHTSA has found any problems with Tesla's batteries.
 

johnman10

Owner of S??D
Nov 11, 2015
120
465
Netherlands
Tesla's batteries are NOT under official investigation by NHTSA. All they are doing is reviewing a default petition, which they are required to do by law. They have not decided to open an official investigation. If they did decide an investigation was needed, the first step would be a Preliminary Evaluation, which as of now they haven't deemed necessary. That would be followed by an Engineering Analysis to determine if there is an actual problem.

As of now there is no indication that NHTSA has found any problems with Tesla's batteries.

NHTSA is not the only organization that is due to investigate this issue. In the European Union, as far as I am aware, no similar investigation inquiry has been submitted to the mobility and transportation department of the European Commission. But I assume it is only a matter of time before people in Europe start submitting similar inquiries.
I actually wonder what the situation in China is. This is where the event that triggered everything happened. What did the Chinese authorities conclude over this incident?
 
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Mike Smith

Active Member
Jul 2, 2016
2,221
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Toronto
NHTSA is not the only organization that is due to investigate this issue. In the European Union, as far as I am aware, no similar investigation inquiry has been submitted to the mobility and transportation department of the European Commission. But I assume it is only a matter of time before people in Europe start submitting similar inquiries.
I actually wonder what the situation in China is. This is where the event that triggered everything started. What did the Chinese authorities conclude over this incident?

These agencies care about safety. The fact that whatever Tesla did seems to have stopped the fires means they won't be opening investigations. They have limited time for investigations so they certainly won't be spending it on something that doesn't even seem to be a current problem. And they certainly won't be spending time investigating a few cars experiencing some advanced battery degradation.

Edit: and no, NHTSA isn't 'due' to investigate the issue. If they were going to they probably would have started a long time ago. The evaluation of the default petition sent by the plaintiff's lawyer was done because it's required by law.
 
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Battpower

Supporting Member
Oct 10, 2019
2,023
1,981
Uk
The fact that whatever Tesla did seems to have stopped the fires means they won't be opening investigations.

Sadly, I think this could be the way it goes. Doesn't make things better, except Tesla might have done just enough to dodge a bullet or two.

However, if all those complaints lodged early on are kept on file, they could easily come back into the picture.

Doesn't change the argument that Tesla really needs to respect it's customer base, unless it really is just aiming to become the next generation 'any old car manufacturer'.
 
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johnman10

Owner of S??D
Nov 11, 2015
120
465
Netherlands
These agencies care about safety. The fact that whatever Tesla did seems to have stopped the fires means they won't be opening investigations. They have limited time for investigations so they certainly won't be spending it on something that doesn't even seem to be a current problem. And they certainly won't be spending time investigating a few cars experiencing some advanced battery degradation.

Edit: and no, NHTSA isn't 'due' to investigate the issue. If they were going to they probably would have started a long time ago. The evaluation of the default petition sent by the plaintiff's lawyer was done because it's required by law.

We will see. It is not only related to fires and public safety that may be proven or may not. It is also related to consumer rights, computer law, common fraud etc. There is a long series of violations that I believe Tesla has done here under local and European law. Don't forget that the European commission is really fond of investigating cases like this one. Look what happened to Google and Facebook in EU.

Google was fined $1.7 billion just for abusive practices in online advertising. Tesla seems to have a list of violations that puts Google's one to shame. On the other hand, if Tesla has done nothing wrong in EU, then they have nothing to worry about in EU.
It is like Dieselgate. Different fines for VW in the US where they got hammered and less than half in the EU.
 

Chaserr

Hyperactive Hyperdrive
Sep 5, 2017
2,664
5,591
Logan
Oh well. We already witness the reaction from the top for almost a year now aren't we? The signal from the top after a year of silence cannot be misinterpreted by any of us
Too bad for them, "the top" are the ones that face criminal charges. The good news is, even with Dieselgate the prison sentances were only I think 40 months so Elon could be a free man in barely over 3 years if he is treated with equal leniency. It's hard to say though, dieselgagate threatened health abstractly through pollution and the sentancing was mostly based on the active criminal coverup decisions. Batterygate has those active criminal coverups but it also ha\d a series of fires, some on video and others Tesla tried to accuse the out-of-town owners of starting, before they admitted to knowing there was a problem and covering it up. Tesla's weird timeline of choosing public admission before choosing crime could go either way at sentencing.
 

Chaserr

Hyperactive Hyperdrive
Sep 5, 2017
2,664
5,591
Logan
What did the Chinese authorities conclude over this incident?
It wasn't a major investigation. Tesla admitted it was a hardware defect - the first use of their "single module" failure mode leading to catastrophic and rapid fire in a parked car, a point that they've brought up several more times in this issue. Putting the puzzle pieces together, the BMS probably allows a few cells in one or two defective or otherwise out-of-spec modules to be dangerously overcharged. Their solution - capping - avoids undetected overcharging by never allowing any cells to reach anything close to those dangers but the flaw itself is still there which is why they run cooling all of the time now, slowed supercharging, and took every possible other step to reduce temperatures to try and keep the dangerously fire prone batteries they never fixed from combusting at random from thermal runaway.

It's like taking the fuse off of an unexploded bomb and telling you it's safe to keep in your garage. Safer, sure, but that lie just means you have an unknown quantity of danger in the garage rather than none - and they broke the law to avoid removing the danger in the first place because the bomb squad and the NHTSA have the exact same opinions on what to do with dangers like these, and it's never "Leave it in your garage"
 

johnman10

Owner of S??D
Nov 11, 2015
120
465
Netherlands
Too bad for them, "the top" are the ones that face criminal charges. The good news is, even with Dieselgate the prison sentances were only I think 40 months so Elon could be a free man in barely over 3 years if he is treated with equal leniency. It's hard to say though, dieselgagate threatened health abstractly through pollution and the sentancing was mostly based on the active criminal coverup decisions. Batterygate has those active criminal coverups but it also ha\d a series of fires, some on video and others Tesla tried to accuse the out-of-town owners of starting, before they admitted to knowing there was a problem and covering it up. Tesla's weird timeline of choosing public admission before choosing crime could go either way at sentencing.

We have also been very kind for a long time with Tesla here in Europe about this topic. Time for them to prove that what they have done is perfectly legal.
 

Chaserr

Hyperactive Hyperdrive
Sep 5, 2017
2,664
5,591
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File for your version of an NHTSA investigation now - that's just safety and recalls. If that fails, move on to your version of the EPA dieselgate investigation since Tesla is also guilty of cheating EPA tests with software settings that can't be achieved in real world customer cars just like VW. Emissions laws have more teeth, I think that's why we've waited in the US. I was going to request an investigation of the EPA at the 1 year mark, but I've decided to see if Battery Day will see Tesla announce a new battery and a batterygate fix based on it. If not, then EPA requests to investigate range cheating software a la dieselgate.
 
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johnman10

Owner of S??D
Nov 11, 2015
120
465
Netherlands
File for your version of an NHTSA investigation now - that's just safety and recalls. If that fails, move on to your version of the EPA dieselgate investigation since Tesla is also guilty of cheating EPA tests with software settings that can't be achieved in real world customer cars just like VW. Emissions laws have more teeth, I think that's why we've waited in the US. I was going to request an investigation of the EPA at the 1 year mark, but I've decided to see if Battery Day will see Tesla announce a new battery and a batterygate fix based on it. If not, then EPA requests to investigate range cheating software a la dieselgate.

Don't worry. We know what needs to be done here in Europe. It goes much further than NHTSA just investigating a safety concern with no evidence other than a self-convicting statement from Tesla itself. There is a European organization for everything here. Vehicle fire safety is just one aspect of this.

This Covid-19 situation is massively delaying everything though.
 
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cpa

Active Member
May 17, 2014
3,152
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Central Valley
Save some a few clicks

Tilting at windmills means fighting imaginary enemies. The idiom tilting at windmills is first seen in the English language in the 1640s as “… fight with the windmills…” The verb tilting was soon substituted for the word fight.

Don Quijote y los gigantes. In his imagination the windmills that dotted the countryside as he rode his trusty steed, Rosinante, were giants. Likely the direct translation from Spanish in the 17th Century came to be fight, and then a more literary and studied type decided that since Don Quijote was essentially a knight-errant, that the verb tilt would be more fitting.
 

MXLRplus

Active Member
Mar 11, 2020
1,599
2,463
Eastvale, CA
If companies could resolve engineering issues by de-rating their customer's cars, then why did VW have to destroy their diesels? They could just derate the motors until they passed. So what if the customer didn't want his car to lose horsepower? It's good for the automaker.
 

johnman10

Owner of S??D
Nov 11, 2015
120
465
Netherlands
If companies could resolve engineering issues by de-rating their customer's cars, then why did VW have to destroy their diesels? They could just derate the motors until they passed. So what if the customer didn't want his car to lose horsepower? It's good for the automaker.
It is self-evident isn't it? I find it ridiculous that people are willing to support Tesla over this. Don't think everyone understands just how many laws are being violated here. VW cheated big time, they got busted and that was it. Here, Tesla won't even admit that something is wrong, even though the list of violations is so much bigger.

And instead of doing anything to resolve it, they are forcing many of us to go after them
 

Chaserr

Hyperactive Hyperdrive
Sep 5, 2017
2,664
5,591
Logan
then why did VW have to destroy their diesels?
In order to come clean with EPA-cheating software they ran without owners' klnowledge, they had to update the cars with downgrades, almost exactly like Tesla did to us. Owners chose not to accept the downgrades and VW had to buy them back.

Any cars that could not be made street legal (this is what our cars are now, with illegal modifications) i were destroyed.

The similarities between batterygate and dieselgate are astounding. It's ridiculous that anyone at Tesla would willingly participate knowing how that already played out for VW - and it probably explains why they go through their General Counsel hires so fast. Can you imnagine looking at that looming threat on your desk as you get oriented, doing your job and telling the CEO it needs to be addressed instantly by coming clean, biting the bullet, and pleading for mercy... and being told by the CEO to deepen the crimes instead by covering it up? I'd quit too.

No one supports Tesla over this, it's just too dispicable to support. There's a few people still living in denial, but denial is just one of their stages of grief. They'll progress eventually.
 
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