Solid-state (Thin Film) Batteries

[vfx]

http://www.economist.com/node/18007516

What Planar has come up with is a ceramic electrolyte which it says works as well as a gel. It can print this electrolyte (along with the battery’s electrodes) onto a sheet of metal or plastic that passes from one reel to another in a process similar to that used in a traditional printing press. Nor does it have to be done in a vacuum. Once printed, the reels can be cut up into individual cells and wired together to make battery packs.

 

[TEG]

Printing a roll has been one of the selling points as to why thin film solar is better to manufacture too...
http://solarpower.e-bookz.info/?p=155

...The process is similar to printing a newspaper. It is as follows:
* Large aluminum foil rolls run through a press similar to that of a newspaper.
* A printer allows a thin layer of semiconducting ink remains.
...

 

[Iz]

Thanks for posting. Battery range/recharge time/cycles/cost are the holy grail of EV acceptance.

Planar says its cells will be more reliable than conventional lithium-ion cells, will be able to store two to three times more energy in the same weight and will last for tens of thousands of recharging cycles. They could also be made for a third of the cost.

If the same can be applied to Lithium-Air then most of us (assuming a good-sized battery pack) would only charge ~ once/month.

 

[Norbert]

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/25825/page1/ reported about the solid electrolyte in July 2010, at which point Planar Energy said they would open the pilot production line "next year". So if they now say they are about to complete it, it seems they are well on track with their time table. Good to hear. Apparently many of the various battery research projects are making good progress.

 

[ramon]

Planar is apparently a dead end. For something ready to go , a German company called DBM-Energy, created by
Mirko Hanemann has created a new type of li ion battery that the German federal government labs have tested and
found to be safe and very long lasting (claimed 28 years of use). It is also said to be rechargeable in 6 minutes and
is lighter than any other li ion type and cheaper to make (one claim, which I can hardly believe, is that a 350 mile battery pack
would cost $1400).

 

[Norbert]

German company called DBM-Energy

We've been discussing DBM in other threads. Do a search.

 

[Iz]

ramon, here is the link: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/4652-Converted-Audi-A2-goes-605-km-%28378mi%29-without-charging?highlight=audi

The $1400 cost is information I did not see before. If true, that will lower the cost of EVs substantially.

 

[Norbert]

ramon, here is the link: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/4652-Converted-Audi-A2-goes-605-km-%28378mi%29-without-charging?highlight=audi

The $1400 cost is information I did not see before. If true, that will lower the cost of EVs substantially.

This was also discussed in the thread you reference (not sure about the exact amount, though, but it was certainly too low to not require substantial information about what this number refers to, in order to be believable. This information was missing.)

I'm not aware of any information about why planar would be a "dead end" (and at this very point not expecting any).

 

[Iz]

This was also discussed in the thread you reference (not sure about the exact amount, though, but it was certainly too low to not require substantial information about what this number refers to, in order to be believable.

You are correct Norbert. I must have seen it when first posted but it did not register. For a 350-mile pack the $1400 cost would be a pivotal change. We also have to keep in mind that at the current $20-30k/pack, someone is realizing those earnings.

 

[Eberhard]

just having the cells for a low price is only one part of the story. you have to transform it into a working pack with batterie management, active balancing and cooling. cells of the type 18650 can you get in bulknumbers for less of 20cent, means the 6831 cells have a value of only 1400usd too. but the value of the whole pack is much higher and the profit for tesla

 

[Norbert]

just having the cells for a low price is only one part of the story. you have to transform it into a working pack with batterie management, active balancing and cooling. cells of the type 18650 can you get in bulknumbers for less of 20cent, means the 6831 cells have a value of only 1400usd too. but the value of the whole pack is much higher and the profit for tesla

I'm sure the cells used in the Roadster are much more than 20 cents, though I don't know myself. There was a thread where some predicted the Model S battery prices quite accurately, and IIRC it was mostly based on the cell prices. If the Roadster cells would be $1400, nobody would be talking about the need to reduce battery cost, as that refers to the batteries themselves.

 

[Eberhard]

Thats it. you are also catched by the idea, batteries are very expensive. If tesla would have to pay the same price as they asked you, they wont make profit. Cells alone are inexpensive - complete packs not. If even Panasonics cells are not that much more expensive. The bulkprice of chinese producer gives you an idea of production cost. is a fairytale story that battery are expensive. yes they are, but only for the enduser. 18650 cells have average 500cycle. A123-systems have 5000+ cycles but half energy density and 10 times the price and therefore fair valued. (cost per kWh/cycle)

 

[Norbert]

Thats it. you are also catched by the idea, batteries are very expensive.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I think that batteries cell prices for cells usable in EVs could be much lower if we had a technology that would be less expensive in terms of materials plus production *in relation to energy density*. Some on this forum know much more about that, but my impression is that it is not necessarily the theoretical minimum of required lithium per energy content, which makes them currently expensive, but complete materials plus production in relation to the energy that can be stored. Currently most attempts to reduce the prices appear to be targeted at increasing the energy density, although I have also read that some companies intend to reduce the production and/or materials cost by a factor of up to 2 (which might be specific to their battery types).

These things appear to be common knowledge, and so far I have not read anyone disagreeing with them on a basic level (except perhaps one or two somewhat biased voices claiming that the economies of scale would give no further benefit).

 

[mikennamorato]

The future of the ev battery!

Hello everybody, i know a ton about future ev batteries, i want to hear your opinion on them.


After Many hours of battery research i found that the carbon nanotube battery is very efficient and would allow the model s a 500+ range!Please look it up!Also if you know anything about flat celled batteries please share.

Please ask as many questions as you'd like.