Some exciting observations about the new Model S60 (software limited 75 kWh)

[No2DinosaurFuel]

Tesla has to make it look to its shareholders that they are strong on the sales and margin. If they told the truth: "most people are buying up the 60 as oppose to the 75 because it is better value but much worst margin for us" then the shareholders woyld not be pleased.

I see this as typical tesla lies, one of the many. Remember the 60 was meant to increase sale of the model s. Apparently it has but at the cost of margins. Now that they got an infusion of 1.3 billion dollars cash they can keep going for a while longer so there is no need to keep the sales number up. Most importantly they need to get thr model 3 out because next year there will be a plethora of 200 miles plus EV and tesla doesn't want to be behind the curve especially when they had 5 years start on 200 miles plus EV.

 

[Dbj77]

I think you mean, "what the Frunk"

 

[hybridbear]

This is very disappointing. I'm glad I have the S60D. I've done two road trips totaling about 10,000 miles in the 8 months I've owned my S60D. I don't see justification for a larger battery at the cost Tesla charges. I completely agree that there are very few 75s out there. Whenever I see another Tesla parked I always try to look at the trunk to see which trim it is. I see a lot of 60s and 60Ds and almost no 75s.

However, I think this is also a way to try to push more Model 3 reservation holders to buy a Model S now. By putting a time limit on the 60, they'll force Model 3 reservation holders that were contemplating the Model S to make a decision now. I bet there will be a rush of 60 orders now.

 

[JoelH]

However, I think this is also a way to try to push more Model 3 reservation holders to buy a Model S now. By putting a time limit on the 60, they'll force Model 3 reservation holders that were contemplating the Model S to make a decision now. I bet there will be a rush of 60 orders now.

This is EXACTLY my situation. Very close to pulling the trigger on an S 60D now. This battery thing, along with the recent hints on the 3 being more "feature-poor" than I expected (yes, my fault for assuming certain things). And dual motor maybe not available until after the tax credit goes away (or at least is in the taper period).

FWIW, asked the guy at the store I've been haunting about charging the 60 to 100% - he says it still degrades. But given the speed of supercharging to "100%" that's been reported, I'm dubious about that. Doubt we'll ever get a definitive answer from TM tho...

 

[DB 2]

FWIW, asked the guy at the store I've been haunting about charging the 60 to 100% - he says it still degrades. But given the speed of supercharging to "100%" that's been reported, I'm dubious about that.

As an owner, I can definitively say that the new 60 degrades in direct proportion to the degradation of the underlying 75 battery. Keep in mind that battery degradation is primarily caused by the number of charge/discharge cycles. Charging to 100% accelerates this slightly, and avoiding charging to 100% decelerates it slightly. Since the new 60 cannot charge to a true 100%, degradation will be slightly reduced, but it will not be eliminated by any means.

That being said, don't wait. Life is too short. This car is the best (and most) money I ever spent. The year I agonized over whether to spend it --- is a year I will not get back. Delaying was one of the more foolish things I have done.

 

[Burnt Toast]

As an owner, I can definitively say that the new 60 degrades in direct proportion to the degradation of the underlying 75 battery. Keep in mind that battery degradation is primarily caused by the number of charge/discharge cycles. Charging to 100% accelerates this slightly, and avoiding charging to 100% decelerates it slightly. Since the new 60 cannot charge to a true 100%, degradation will be slightly reduced, but it will not be eliminated by any means.

That being said, don't wait. Life is too short. This car is the best (and most) money I ever spent. The year I agonized over whether to spend it --- is a year I will not get back. Delaying was one of the more foolish things I have done.

What proof do you have of this? It contradicts literally every piece of data on the subject.

 

[jelloslug]

My anecdotal evidence shows no degradation in 18.5k miles so far in my 60D that I charge to 100% most of the time. I have also Supercharged it dozens of times, if not 100 times, so far.

 

[u00mem9]

As an owner, I can definitively say that the new 60 degrades in direct proportion to the degradation of the underlying 75 battery. Keep in mind that battery degradation is primarily caused by the number of charge/discharge cycles. Charging to 100% accelerates this slightly, and avoiding charging to 100% decelerates it slightly. Since the new 60 cannot charge to a true 100%, degradation will be slightly reduced, but it will not be eliminated by any means.

That being said, don't wait. Life is too short. This car is the best (and most) money I ever spent. The year I agonized over whether to spend it --- is a year I will not get back. Delaying was one of the more foolish things I have done.

This has been my experience also. If you read some of the lit on the batteries, it is obvious that charging them causes them to degrade. faster (super) charging is more harmful. My S60 range has dropped to 207 from 210 new at 100%. I've supercharged on 3 road trips and have 25k miles since Aug last year. (yikes!). When I don't need the range, I charge to 90% and I plug in at work when the temp is very hot or below the freeze point. When the car is plugged in, it is more generous with heating / cooling the battery to keep it in the healthy zone.

 

[JRP3]

faster (super) charging is more harmful.

That's not what the data shows Tesla battery data shows path to over 500,000 miles on a single pack

It’s hard to get much out of the data at this point, but it seems that 90% charge level appears to be the ideal daily charge level and surprisingly, frequent Supercharging (twice a week to daily) appears to actually be beneficial in preventing battery degradation.

This effect seems to be supported by Prof Dahn's claim that less time spent charging is beneficial.

 

[jelloslug]

This has been my experience also. If you read some of the lit on the batteries, it is obvious that charging them causes them to degrade. faster (super) charging is more harmful. My S60 range has dropped to 207 from 210 new at 100%. I've supercharged on 3 road trips and have 25k miles since Aug last year. (yikes!). When I don't need the range, I charge to 90% and I plug in at work when the temp is very hot or below the freeze point. When the car is plugged in, it is more generous with heating / cooling the battery to keep it in the healthy zone.

Ambient temperature plays a roll in charging also. When it was colder my 60D was charging as low as 215 at 100%. Now that temps are back up it's going to 218-219 again. On an 88° day a few weeks ago I saw 220 miles.

 

[croman]

Ambient temperature plays a roll in charging also. When it was colder my 60D was charging as low as 215 at 100%. Now that temps are back up it's going to 218-219 again. On an 88° day a few weeks ago I saw 220 miles.

I've charged to 220 miles on my S60D when temps were below 0F and 214 when I first got my car and temps were in the 40sF. Not sure temp has all that much to do with it. I think its all module balancing.

 

[hillestadk]

I have a 60 (not a D) and i drive A LOT! (sort of the reason I got the car) I have put 21k miles in 5 months and my 100% range was 213 at new; currently it is at 207. I would say the degredation is based off the underlying 75 battery. I would be hard pressed to believe that I've burned through over 10% of the battery pack in 20k miles.

 

[gabeincal]

This has been my experience also. If you read some of the lit on the batteries, it is obvious that charging them causes them to degrade. faster (super) charging is more harmful. My S60 range has dropped to 207 from 210 new at 100%. I've supercharged on 3 road trips and have 25k miles since Aug last year. (yikes!). When I don't need the range, I charge to 90% and I plug in at work when the temp is very hot or below the freeze point. When the car is plugged in, it is more generous with heating / cooling the battery to keep it in the healthy zone.

Your mileage drop is NOT degradation.

 

[DB 2]

What proof do you have of this? It contradicts literally every piece of data on the subject.

Which portion do you dispute/doubt? The first sentence or the rest of the first paragraph or both?

 

[Burnt Toast]

Which portion do you dispute/doubt? The first sentence or the rest of the first paragraph or both?

The anecdotal example vs the scientific and mathematical analysis offered by other users.

 

[u00mem9]

For some reason it is popular to believe the 60 is magically immune to degradation just because it gets charged to 86% of the nominal capacity @100% charge (62/72)

I'm as excited about the screaming deal the 60 represents (represented) as anyone, but Lithium ion batteries degrade based on charge cycle count, time, charge rate, temperature, and peak charge level. This is well established. Tesla's minor improvements have made the situation better...but try to be objective. These batteries degrade. Charging them to higher cell voltages cause faster degradation. It's just that simple.

Dealing emotionally with the fact that your prized possession has a finite lifespan is part of being a grownup. I don't really understand the appeal of the denial myth here. Still upset about Santa?

 

[JRP3]

charge rate

How do you explain the evidence provided which shows otherwise, and the science which supports that evidence?

The results challenge the prevailing view that “supercharging” batteries is always harder on battery electrodes than charging at slower rates. The results also suggest that scientists may be able to modify electrodes or change the way batteries are charged to promote more uniform charging and discharging and extend battery life.

Green Car Congress: Study finds rapid charging and draining doesn’t damage lithium-ion electrode as much as thought

 

[u00mem9]

You are comparing a survey to hard data.

As explained in your link, it is well established that charge rate matters. They are actually claiming the effect is smaller than previously expected...not zero.

Superchargers are hitting what? 1C?...2C? There is plenty of data to establish that has an effect...plenty from Dahn himself.

 

[JRP3]

Not sure what you mean, Dahn states longer time charging = more time for parasitic side reactions = shorter cycle life.

 

[FlatSix911]

The truth ... about Santa

For some reason it is popular to believe the 60 is magically immune to degradation just because it gets charged to 86% of the nominal capacity @100% charge (62/72)

I'm as excited about the screaming deal the 60 represents (represented) as anyone, but Lithium ion batteries degrade based on charge cycle count, time, charge rate, temperature, and peak charge level. This is well established.
Tesla's minor improvements have made the situation better...but try to be objective. These batteries degrade. Charging them to higher cell voltages cause faster degradation. It's just that simple. Dealing emotionally with the fact that your prized possession has a finite lifespan is part of being a grownup. I don't really understand the appeal of the denial myth here. Still upset about Santa?