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Some exciting observations about the new Model S60 (software limited 75 kWh)

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@privater, I received different information than you about fully charging the new S60. I recently ordered an S60D (set to hit production first week of August). I asked my delivery specialist the same question about charging, and he said that the software limitation makes 15 kWh of the battery completely dormant by taking it off line so that it's as if those 15 kWh don't truly exist. The down side is that you still should only charge to 80-90% regularly for longevity of the 60 kWh you're using. The upside is that while the 60 kWh you're using will slowing degrade and loose maximum charging potential, the 15 kWh that is dormant will not. That means that if you ever upgrade and activate the additional 15 kWh, you will have a larger battery capacity than if you had paid for the full 75 kWh up front (in which the capacity of the extra 15 kWh would degrade along with the rest of the battery).

I think this would make sense if the batteries are wired in parallel as this cite indicates (Battery Pack - Tesla Motors Wiki). If you're charging to 80%, then each set of cells in parallel is only charged to 80%. So if that is what maximizes battery capacity over time, then you would still need to charge to only 80% even if sets of cells amounting to 15 kWh were taken off line. Put another way if you have five 15-kWh cups (e.g., S75) and the idea is to only fill each cup to 80%, then closing off one 15-kWh cup doesn't change what needs to be done—namely, the other 4 cups (e.g., S60) should still only be filled to 80% most of the time.

So I would double check with your Tesla technician to make sure you have the full picture. I had the same though as you, but that was assuming the software limitation was a permanent 80% limitation on how much the battery would charge. But instead it seems that the car software charges in the same manner on both the S60 and S75, the only difference being that 15 kWh of the battery is switched off (like a physical electrical switch) on the S60.

That being said, maintaining battery life may be a bit more complicated than just charging to 80%. For example, I've had a LEAF for 3 years, and it just hit it's 30k-mile service a couple of weeks ago. In that time, I have fully charged the car every day with a handful of exceptions, and have yet to see any loss of bars in my 12-bar battery capacity meter. That may be because my round-trip commute is 46+ miles. Even driving really efficiently, I get to work with 75% or less capacity and get home with 40% or less capacity. And in the winter I get home with 30% or less capacity. So even though the car has been fully charged every day, it spends around half the time at 75% or less capacity. I've also read that charging to 80% may not be as important as trying to only charge the car when it goes below 80%. For most Tesla owners who use around 20% or less of the battery on a typical day, this means only charging to 80% if you want to keep the car plugged in all the time when at home. But if you have a really long commute, or like to drive on the aggressive side, you may use enough battery capacity over the course of a day that charging the car to 100% every night isn't an issue.

My Tesla delivery specialist also said that using the SpCs frequently affects maximum battery capacity. Adding another reason, in addition to long SpC lines, to get a Level 2 charging solution installed at home and use it most of the time.
 
@privater, I received different information than you about fully
My Tesla delivery specialist also said that using the SpCs frequently affects maximum battery capacity. Adding another reason, in addition to long SpC lines, to get a Level 2 charging solution installed at home and use it most of the time.

Hi, @joeytree, thanks for a replay, that's a huge amount of read though.

I think what you been told by that technician might be wrong. Here is the reason:

In the eye of your technician, a new software limited 60 kWh should work exactly the same with the old 60 kWh: Same battery capacity, totally dormant 15 kWh leftovers, which should conclude a same charging characteristics, right?

Let's debunk the myth.

When charging it's not the same:
Let's see how Tesla explain how supercharger doing with efficiency and time:

Screen Shot 2016-07-21 at 2.23.41 PM.png

Thus we can concludes:
First 40 min is quickest, gives you 80% of total battery capacity. Let's call it stage 1
Last 35 min is slowest, only gives you 20% of battery capacity. Let's call it stage 2
That means stage 1 is 4x efficient thant stage 2.
Let's watch a real world S85 how to supercharge 100%:
Let me extract some screenshots:
one from stage 1 : Actual charging power 228a x 376v = 86.7 wh
Screen Shot 2016-07-21 at 2.29.09 PM.png


This one from just jump from stage 1 to stage 2:
Actual charging power 98a x 398v = 39 wh
Screen Shot 2016-07-21 at 2.40.46 PM.png



another one from stage 2:
Actual charging power 36a x 404v = 14.5 wh
Screen Shot 2016-07-21 at 2.32.54 PM.png


And a screen capture from final stage 2:

Actual charging power 12a x 404v = 4.8 wh
Screen Shot 2016-07-21 at 2.19.16 PM.png


From this real world data, I think you can conclude it's highly matching what Tesla explained in that charging graph.

Let's take a look at the real world charging on new 60 kWh:

Like I mentioned in the original post, mine is sharing a supercharger with another Tesla, so my top charging speed is cap around 60 kW, not 120 kW.


This is capture from stage 1:

Actual charging power 234a x 319v = 74.6 wh

IMG_0224.PNG


This is capture from stage 1 jump to stage 2:

Actual charging power 175a x 348v = 60.9 wh

Notice the difference? it almost doesn't stop high speed at 80% mark!

IMG_0229.PNG


This is capture from stage 2 final moment:

It's 98% charge, but still

Actual charging power 101a x 354v = 35.7 wh

IMG_0230.PNG


Now let's think a little bit about the result:

The new S 60 charging speed doesn't dampen much around 80% mark, and still have high speed even with last 20% capacity.

The only reason it can do that, is because it's a 75 kWh battery in supercharger eye, when approaching software limited 60kWh mark, Supercharger still sees it as a 80% charge state of 75 kWh battery. So no huge charge speed penalty.

So I'd say the technician you quote might be wrong, the real world experience more towards better side.
 

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Nice! Thanks for the data @privater! I'll have to go back and ask my delivery specialist, and might have to wait to ask one of their service technicians when I take delivery. Your conclusion is the most reasonable from the data. Otherwise the S60 would likely be charging harmfully fast towards the end.
 
Yeah, CA is a crowded place, I have to wait in queue for others to leave to get a charge:
waited 10 minutes for my turn... can't imagine what will happen when Model 3 start ramp up production.

View attachment 185872

Is this Mountain View? We took a trip to San Francisco a couple months ago and I dropped by Mountain View early Sunday morning to get some juice only to be greeted by a similar situation. When a charger finally opened, it ended up being broken. I thought we had it bad in LA.
 
Your delivery specialist could not be right - there is no way to leave 15 kWh of cells "dormant". They would self-discharge and become worthless.
@privater, I received different information than you about fully charging the new S60. I recently ordered an S60D (set to hit production first week of August). I asked my delivery specialist the same question about charging, and he said that the software limitation makes 15 kWh of the battery completely dormant by taking it off line so that it's as if those 15 kWh don't truly exist.
 
Your delivery specialist could not be right - there is no way to leave 15 kWh of cells "dormant". They would self-discharge and become worthless.

More would likely do more harm to the cells if they were left dormant vs it actually charging the 75kWh battery and stopping at 60kWh effective charge limited by software. The majority of DS/technicians/articles seem to indicate that it's safe to charge to 100%, mind you Tesla likely would prefer this to be less known as reduces our incentive to pay for the upgrade later as this provides a better daily effective range w/ out paying extra.
 
Not the first one to get bad information from the Tesla rep.'s. I will give them a break though because they are learning about these cars , batteries, AP, software, solar etc..............as they go. Many recent hirees and mostly young (won't hold that against them ) :)
I spoke with a DS at Manhasset NY and two others appeared to be "in training" and were a little light on details. But all seem to be eager and overly friendly
 
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There is just no point in limiting charging of a software-limited battery with a 15 kWh buffer even further. When the new S60 shows 100% it's actually 80%, that's definitely of no harm for battery life and good for daily charging. So I'll be charging whenever possible and alway till "full" (so 80% of the real total capacity), keeping the charging cycles small, which is way better for the battery than larger or full charging cycles. I am confident that I will not have to worry about premature battery degradation that way.
 
When the new S60 shows 100% it's actually 80%, that's definitely of no harm for battery life and good for daily charging... keeping the charging cycles small, which is way better for the battery than larger or full charging cycles.

The ideal is to have charging cycles around 50%. So small charging cycles starting at 80% is only ideal if you arrive home with 30%. If not, then 70 or 60% may be better (or whatever the number so you cycle around 50%).

Also, if 100% is "definitely of no harm for battery life and good for daily charging" then it's odd Tesla recommends 90% max in your vehicle. Sorry, but I'd go with Tesla over someone's advice on the internet.

Lower charge voltages prolong battery life and electric vehicles and satellites take advantage of this. Similar provisions could also be made for consumer devices, but these are seldom offered; planned obsolescence takes care of this.
 
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@Canuck, the point here is that displayed 100% in the new S 60 is actually 80% of its real 75 kWh battery capacity, displayed 80% are 64% of its real 75 kWh battery capacity.

Cycling around 50% may be ideal, but cycling below 80% of the real battery capacity (which actually means below 100% displayed) isn't far from ideal. You would not start charging at real 80% but charge until real 80% (because that's the charge limit implemented by software).

There is no point in "Tesla recommended 90% charging" because that's only valid for Tesla models with unlimited battery capacity.

Our local Tesla Service Center has already confirmed that this information is correct, hence you can charge to displayed 100% at any time without fear of a negative impact on battery life, because in the new S 60 that's only 80% of the real 75 kWh battery capacity!

BTW General guides on charging regular consumer batteries are less useful in connection with EV batteries, because EV batteries are handled and protected by a BMS (= battery management system), however consumer batteries are just plain cells.
 
@Canuck, the point here is that displayed 100% in the new S 60 is actually 80% of its real 75 kWh battery capacity, displayed 80% are 64% of its real 75 kWh battery capacity.

I understand the point but if you drive using 28% of the battery daily, then charging to 80% (which is 64%) is better for battery longevity than charging to 100% (which is actually 80%).

BTW General guides on charging regular consumer batteries are less useful in connection with EV batteries, because EV batteries are handled and protected by a BMS (= battery management system), however consumer batteries are just plain cells.

BMS does not change the inherent characteristics of lithium ion batteries -- rather, it mitigates them. But when you say BMS, you probably mean TMS (thermal management system) since that does most of the degredation mitigating as heat is the very good friend of degradation, especially when you combine heat with charging -- hence the problems with Leaf batteries in hot climates. The link that I referenced specifically mentions EV's. Cyling around 50% is best for lithium ion battery life and the shorter the cycles the better. Those facts don't change regardless of BMS or TMS.

Our local Tesla Service Center has already confirmed that this information is correct...

I've been around here long enough to have heard that statement mentioned a number of times when the information is later proven wrong. But even accepting that it is correct, charging to 100% (even if it is in fact 80%) isn't ideal for battery longevity for someone with a new 60 and short daily commutes. I just want to make sure people understand that and can decide what is best for them. I doubt in the long run the difference will be all that much but if it was me, and I didn't need the full range daily, I'd keep my slider in the range recommended in the vehicle.

(BTW, I was in Salzburg recently with my family and we really enjoyed your country.)
 
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Good analysis - well done :cool:

Hi, @joeytree, thanks for a replay, that's a huge amount of read though. I think what you been told by that technician might be wrong. Here is the reason:
In the eye of your technician, a new software limited 60 kWh should work exactly the same with the old 60 kWh: Same battery capacity, totally dormant 15 kWh leftovers, which should conclude a same charging characteristics, right? Let's debunk the myth.
The new S 60 charging speed doesn't dampen much around 80% mark, and still have high speed even with last 20% capacity.

The only reason it can do that, is because it's a 75 kWh battery in supercharger eye, when approaching software limited 60kWh mark, Supercharger still sees it as a 80% charge state of 75 kWh battery. So no huge charge speed penalty. So I'd say the technician you quote might be wrong, the real world experience more towards better side.
 
@Canuck, indeed, thinking more about it, I will just leave the charge slider in the 80% position for our daily drives in town nonetheless, which should keep charging cycles between displayed ~50% and 80% (so that's between ~40% and 64% actual charge then). The new S 60 offers enough range for our usage case that we do not have to worry about it anyway.

A more serious concern than battery life in the consideration of regenerative braking, because we live on a hill, which means every time we leave, we go downhill for about 1 km first. If I would charge to 100% (= actual 80%) and the software-limitation of the 75 kWh battery does not allow regenerative braking in that condition, I would have to go all the way down with using the actual brake, and that's really not what I have in mind.

Can someone with a new S 60 answer the following questions:
  1. Is it true, that regenerative braking does not work when fully charged (= 80% of the actual battery capacity)?
  2. Is generative braking fully working with a charge level of displayed 90% (= 72% of the actual battery capacity), or is generative braking limited in that condition the more the charge level is to displayed 100% (as it is with our Nissan LEAF)?
Of course I want what's best for the car, we have a very long holding period in mind.