Some P85Ds being delivered with non-staggered wheels

[Johan]

Has there ever been another reason than estethics for staggered wheels? If it had to do with cornering I'd think you would want the wider wheel (i.e. the wheel where the sidewall v.s. width ratio is as low as possible thus giving an even firmer sidewall) on the front, not the back, since you're steering a lot more with the front wheels right? Also please don't say "wider tires have more contact patch and thus better grip" since it's just not true (see jerry33's post above).

 

[bxr140]

Also please don't say "wider tires have more contact patch and thus better grip" since it's just not true (see jerry33's post above).

Except that, at least when proper fitment logic is applied within practical limits, wider tires often DO provide more 'grip'. It's true that they don't inherently have more or less static contact patch, and certainly there are plenty of situations where narrower is better...but in general, if you're looking for more dry weather, performance type handling and youve exceeded the limits of your current tires, wider will be better.

One of the most basic points is that the wider tire often allows for lower tire pressure, which increase the contact patch and tire compliance, but there are also other benefits like more ideal dynamic characteristics of the contact patch, smaller slip angles, and better thermal management.

 

[jerry33]

but in general, if you're looking for more dry weather, performance type handling and youve exceeded the limits of your current tires, wider will be better.

As long as you're talking cornering and not braking or acceleration. Also driving over an expansion joint with a tire that has a short, narrow contact patch isn't a whole lot of fun as the tire tends to slip on the steel. It's a whole different story if you're talking track day, but my assumption is that most folks are talking about driving on ordinary roads.

One of the most basic points is that the wider tire often allows for lower tire pressure,

Not the 35% 21" tires found on the Model S. This works just find on large aspect ratio tires for F! and for SUVs, but doing this in a 35% 21" tire is only going to get you wheel and tire damage.

which increase the contact patch and tire compliance, but there are also other benefits like more ideal dynamic characteristics of the contact patch, smaller slip angles, and better thermal management.

Provided there is no rain, potholes, or other "surprises". But in a lot of cases, it isn't going to matter because tread compound and belt construction often trump width.

Bear in mind that the perfect set up for track use is generally not what you want for everyday driving. My opinion is that the setup should be able deal with the inclement conditions you'd typically find (rain, potholes, extended high speed driving, road hazards, etc.). I've seen far too many people spend far too much money setting up their car to give the absolute best performance only to ditch the car within a year because it's almost undriveable in normal use. Granted that none of the tires Tesla supplies are that extreme, but there's no question that you pay a lot for the 21" setup (staggered or not) and don't get that much more for the extra expense.

 

[bxr140]

As long as you're talking cornering and not braking or acceleration.

Sure I am. Wider still is better (again, to a point).

Regarding the rest of your points, context of my post (and the arc being followed) was dry weather performance. Street or track.

 

[Madartist]

Another data point... My P85D was delivered last Friday with non-staggered 245/35/21 Continental ContiSportContact 5. I believe this is the new standard tire configuration on this model. Personally, I prefer quieter tires with better tread wear (hopefully) and rotation capability over the staggered setup. The previous Pilot Sport 2 tires on my P85+ were noisy and wore out quickly, even with conservative driving. I would be very interested to see how these Conti's will compare over time with the Michelin Pilot Super Sport in terms of performance/traction, tread wear, noise, and range/energy consumption.

 

[lolachampcar]

The PD uses the front wheels to pull the front of the car through corners. This likely had a huge impact on stability control and removed the need for stagger to pass federal stability control requirements.......
At least that is my guess.

 

[100thMonkey]

chiming in as a P85+ guy. the staggered tires were the source of tremendous headaches for both Tesla and owners. the wider back tires and softer rubber resulted in a veritable cheese grater, with folks replacing tires as often as every 3K miles. perhaps the headache just wasn't worth it for Tesla. oh and not to mention the environmental impact of using up a barrel of oil to make each tire... you come darn close to consuming as much petroleum in tires as a gas car consumes in fuel. after reading up on all the complaints, I immediately switched to non-staggered tires and 19,000 miles later, still haven't had to replace them!

 

[dennis]

chiming in as a P85+ guy. the staggered tires were the source of tremendous headaches for both Tesla and owners. the wider back tires and softer rubber resulted in a veritable cheese grater, with folks replacing tires as often as every 3K miles. perhaps the headache just wasn't worth it for Tesla.

I drive "enthusiastically". On my P85+ I got 9000 miles from my first set of PS2 rear tires. The fronts still had tread at 15,000 miles when I sold it to buy a P85D. I put a few hundred miles on the 245 square Conti setup and was less than impressed with the handling performance. So I mounted staggered PS2's on 21x9 aftermarket rims and the handling is much better. Most likely it has more to do with tread compound than rear tire size but I'm happy with how the new setup performs and looks.

 

[Fezzik]

I drive "enthusiastically". On my P85+ I got 9000 miles from my first set of PS2's. The fronts still had tread at 15,000 miles when I sold it to buy a P85D. I put a few hundred miles on the 245 square Conti setup and was less than impressed with the handling performance. So I mounted staggered PS2's on 21x9 aftermarket rims and the handling is much better. Most likely it has more to do with tread compound than rear tire size but I'm happy with how the new setup performs and looks.

so you got to compare them both. Can you go in a little more details on your pros and cons of each?

 

[dennis]

so you got to compare them both. Can you go in a little more details on your pros and cons of each?

Neither set was worn in so it wasn't a full test. However there is a certain freeway off-ramp that I have taken a least once a day for the past 35 years that provides a quick handling benchmark. The Conti's are unable to hold the same cornering speed as the PS2's - they squeal and lose traction several mph lower than the Michelins. This was in dry weather and temps in the 70s, so no comparisons done for other conditions. Although this weather appears to be the new normal for winter with the severe drought in California.

The Conti's are quite a but quieter than the PS2's, and here's why - approximately 1/2" of foam all the way around the inner circumference of the tire!


\

 

[3s-a-charm]

My p85d entered production beginning of February and thankfully arrived with the staggered setup. I also ordered the 21 winter set which is not staggered, and I think the offset looks terrible. I much prefer the look of the wider tires on the rear.

+1

I went and checked my tires... the winter set that was on the car has a square setup on 21" wheels and the summer set on 21" wheels came as staggered with Michelin Pilot Sport tires. I didn't see where they say "PS2" - just said Pilot Sport from what I could see.

I also feel the staggered setup is nice for the esthetics of it primarily.

 

[dennis]

I didn't see where they say "PS2" - just said Pilot Sport from what I could see.

If you look very carefully below the "t" in the word "Sport" there should be a tiny rectangle with the letters "PS2". The only reason I know is because earlier PS2's had a bigger rectangle under the "rt" in Sport.

 

[MuppetOwl]

Has there ever been another reason than estethics for staggered wheels? If it had to do with cornering I'd think you would want the wider wheel (i.e. the wheel where the sidewall v.s. width ratio is as low as possible thus giving an even firmer sidewall) on the front, not the back, since you're steering a lot more with the front wheels right? Also please don't say "wider tires have more contact patch and thus better grip" since it's just not true (see jerry33's post above).

Some good info on why wider tires have more grip:
Tyres - Why is wide good? - PistonHeads

 

[KOL2000]

Some good info on why wider tires have more grip:
Tyres - Why is wide good? - PistonHeads

I would have expected more OUTRAGE from the group. One of the best parts of the P+ for me was the wide rear tires! They look great and fill in the enormous wheel well space.

If I was going to trade my P+ for a PD today I'd demand the staggered setup. This kind of quiet option removal is a little unnerving but I guess we are all spoiled brats considering what ICE crap most people drive.

 

[MuppetOwl]

My P85D is delivered next week. If my car is delivered without the staggered setup I will demand to get them, because when i ordered the car I did get information that the 21" package was the same as P85+ staggered setup. And all of the P85D cars delivered to now in norway has staggered setup.
The car does not look good with 245 tires in the rear. The 265 tires are ok. Also the Conti tires sucks compared to PS2.

 

[dennis]

The car does not look good with 245 tires in the rear. The 265 tires are ok. Also the Conti tires sucks compared to PS2.

It is not just because of the size. The 245 Continental has a tread width of 8.3". The 245 PS2 has a tread width of 9.5". The 265 PS2 only adds .2" (to 9.7"). The better look has much more to do with the tire type than the extra 20mm in section width.

One tire option that has never been suggested here AFAIK would be a square setup of 245/35/21" PS2's on the stock 8.5" rims (or square aftermarket rims such as 21 x 9s). This would give you all of the look and grip advantages of the PS2 AND you can rotate the tires. You still have the downside of more noise and a worse treadwear rating vs. the Continental, but for many of us the better handling would be worth it.

And while you might consider the 245/35/21 Pilot Super Sports because of their superior traction and treadwear over the PS2's, in that size their tread width is 8.7", almost 1" less than the comparable PS2. They do make a Porsche variant in 255/40/20 that lolachampcar is running on aftermarket rims that has a tread width of 10".

 

[3s-a-charm]

My P85D is delivered next week. If my car is delivered without the staggered setup I will demand to get them, because when i ordered the car I did get information that the 21" package was the same as P85+ staggered setup. And all of the P85D cars delivered to now in norway has staggered setup.
The car does not look good with 245 tires in the rear. The 265 tires are ok. Also the Conti tires sucks compared to PS2.

I agree and for me it's honestly 99.9% about the looks of the wider rear tire. My X5 has the M-sport package and the rear 20" tires look like they are as wide as a Corvette's tires. In fact, they are 315/35 R20 tires which look MASSIVE in my garage. I'm just praying the weather warms up so I can to my wheel swap and try the PS2s!

 

[MuppetOwl]

It is not just because of the size. The 245 Continental has a tread width of 8.3". The 245 PS2 has a tread width of 9.5". The 265 PS2 only adds .2" (to 9.7"). The better look has much more to do with the tire type than the extra 20mm in section width.

The rear rims is also 9.0 inch, instead of 8.5. That does also help to make it look wider

 

[Sigma4Life]

My P85D was delivered last week and I can confirm it has the staggered setup with 245 on front and 265 on the back. I too believe the staggered setup looks much better so I'm happy it arrived that way.

 

[NielsChr]

I hope to get contiSports with the lower noise level - that s most important to me.