tstafford
Active Member
No. AP is complex and beyond my comprehension. The Source Button is obvious and simple and therefore an excellent thing to worry about.
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No. AP is complex and beyond my comprehension. The Source Button is obvious and simple and therefore an excellent thing to worry about.
No, most of these are UI decisions made by Tesla for reasons we don't understand, not code quality issues. The exception would be audio auto-playing in the middle of the night, which I've never experienced or heard of.
TES-E
Member
I have not used the radio for a few days. Yesterday I turned it on (volume up from 0) and... nothing. I thought... Now What??? I called up the audio on the center screen, and there was no station selected (XM Radio). I selected my station and the music came on, and guess what... the 'now playing' button was no longer grayed out like it was after the last upgrade. I could see song and artist. I decided to try selecting music on the dash display, and lo and behold... it now functions like it used to. I still can't push the left thumbwheel to mute, but at least the rest is back to normal. Not sure why it started working again unless Tesla logged into the car and fixed something. Anyway, I'm glad to have it back.
Yes. I think we should. The random movement of UI objects shows a lack of control over the software features. The changing of how mute works ( or not) on every release shows that nobody is in control of the UI changes. They happen willy nilly as some software guy/gal thinks their role in the universe is to make the mute work how they like. Then next month, another software guy/gal comes along with their preference.
While I hope the AP and UI teams are different, I worry about a corporate culture. Even on the software that drives the car, how come the regen strength changes on nearly every release? It's because one guy says "too much", and the software guy/gal changes it, and the next time, some other guy says "not enough", and the same or other software guy/gal changes it again. What the hell? That's not now to run a large, complex piece of software that literally holds people's lives in its control.
The other challenge Tesla has (which is also a good thing) is that there is a very strong, hands on CEO at the top. While this is awesome, and Tesla would be nowhere without Musk, it also has challenges when the head guy demands schedules that likely can't be met, and at the same time is constantly dropping in on the software team with his own thoughts and wishes that likely change from day to day. Working for that sort of person can be a damn challenge, and the end product often shows the 'hands on' attention. For better or worse. Clearly Musk has never used the nav system and had it tell him to return to a supercharger he just left to charge for zero minutes. If so, he'd have fired the responsible party. Perhaps he has which is why it was only fixed (I hear. I haven't been to an SC since) in 7.1.
This isn't all Tesla's fault. All large software projects turn to crap as they get large and the key software folks move onto other, more exciting projects leaving the 'average' software folks to maintain the thing. The tech industry in the USA is nearly always full of exciting opportunities for smart software people; at some point, working on a large, bloated piece of software for 3-4 years is no longer fun, and the key guys/gals move on. It's inevitable.
Look at MacOS. It used to be sorta stable. MacOS X gets less stable with every release - server authentication now tries to use f'ing apple id's, and logging onto various servers on a local net can become a permissions nightmare (for example - I have many others). The iPhone may get more and more features with each new release, but mine gains more and more bugs with each update, too. My AppleWatch used to stay connected to my Iphone all the time until the latest AppleWatch software update. Now, after a couple of hours, my AppleWatch shows a little red thing at the top of the display indicating it has lost contact with the iPhone. Powering off or on one or the other solves it. For a while. This used to be rock solid. But, it broke.
We should be concerned. Not necessarily because it's Tesla, but because it happens to all large software projects. It's inevitable. There's no excuse for the number of times I've had to reboot my center display with the two scroll wheels to restore some functionality (nav system updates, the screen was all black one morning last week when I got in, the 3G connectivity sometimes gets lost until I reboot, the blind spot warning horn sounded one time (legitimately), but stayed on until I rebooted, etc, etc. Basing the software in both the instrument cluster and the center console on Linux means both are no more stable than the underlying OS. Yep, like every complex OS, Linux does strange things from time to time. Add complex UI and GUI on top of that, and it only gets more unstable. It's the way consumer grade computers and software works.
I fully agree. And honestly I bet this same issue is happening on the hardware side. How many variations of hardware pieces etc. do they have now?
Hmm... I've worked in software development a long time and take issue with a few of the assumptions you're making. I obviously do not work for Tesla nor do I have any insight into their operations, but I do know industry best practices and I've seen my fair share of software approaches.
Yeah that's really not how software design works... at least anywhere that makes decent software. There's massive amounts of continuity even if you have developers rolling in & out. It comes through requirements, business analysts & stakeholders that follow the SDLC of a project, not the individual humans. Although yes, people do inflict their own judgment on implementation, it's not like a single software engineer just makes a decision to change a UI without telling anyone. There are multiple teams and processes in place to prevent that type of thing from happening.
The change to mute was a bug. If I had to guess at root cause, I'd guess some team was given a requirement that said something like "Disable the left scroll wheel depression functionality when parking sensors are active to prevent users from switching away from parking sensor view." For safety reason, they don't want you accidentally changing to tire pressure graphics when critical information regarding your parking sensors are up on the view, then having you smash into something. Now whoever created this requirement of disabling of the left scroll wheel depression functionality probably did not intend to disable mute, just the "hold down to switch view" functionality. This was likely an unforeseen impact that the team working on the issue missed.
That's an assumption on my part... but that stuff happens all the time with requirements and coding.
It's really easy to design & read specs that tell you what something will do. It's not so easy to try to analyze what else it will do that you didn't intend.
That, in my experience at least, is where most bugs are born. Not from sloppy code, but from unanticipated conflict.
A coordinated organization should have controls around stuff like that... a CR/CRB process that is designed to protect the organization against an individual influence like that. Remember that some of these systems, particular the drive/safety systems, are not to be treated lightly and any change would require massive amounts of vetting & testing.
To assume Elon hasn't used any features or is unaware of their flaws seems a bit naive to me. You probably engage Nav even when you don't really need it. I do sometimes. Why wouldn't he?
So after all that... where'd the button go? Who knows. Was it some rogue agent, some engineer with a vendetta against that button and thought it should die?
Probably not.
It could've been intentionally removed based on some instructions or design that we don't have insight into. Probably, it was just a bug, an accident that would have any root cause. Software is written by humans (for now) and tested by humans (for now) and until the glorious machine revolution (and, according to the Matrix, even afterwards too) it'll have bugs despite the best practices or efforts.
Maybe some developer working on changes for a media redesign in version 7.x checked his code into the wrong branch and it got picked up in the build for 7.1. Happens all the time. And the testing team, not expecting any changes to the media center did a lighter than average regression in that area and missed that change. Now hopefully they'd be doing some level of S/W CM auditing that should pick up a code change in an unanticipated area but even that is not a guarantee that a single stressed or distracted human might have missed it in an audit.
Anyway now I'm making pretty broad assumptions about how Tesla runs their shop.
If a rogue engineer, whether working on UI design or drive systems like regen, has the ability to make changes willy-nilly on personal preferences then the wheels would be falling off these cars. Not that they're perfect (I just started a thread complaining about a bluetooth issue)... but I've seen (and worked on) worse software
Yeah that's really not how software design works... at least anywhere that makes decent software. There's massive amounts of continuity even if you have developers rolling in & out. It comes through requirements, business analysts & stakeholders that follow the SDLC of a project, not the individual humans. Although yes, people do inflict their own judgment on implementation, it's not like a single software engineer just makes a decision to change a UI without telling anyone. There are multiple teams and processes in place to prevent that type of thing from happening.
The change to mute was a bug. If I had to guess at root cause, I'd guess some team was given a requirement that said something like "Disable the left scroll wheel depression functionality when parking sensors are active to prevent users from switching away from parking sensor view." For safety reason, they don't want you accidentally changing to tire pressure graphics when critical information regarding your parking sensors are up on the view, then having you smash into something. Now whoever created this requirement of disabling of the left scroll wheel depression functionality probably did not intend to disable mute, just the "hold down to switch view" functionality. This was likely an unforeseen impact that the team working on the issue missed.
That's an assumption on my part... but that stuff happens all the time with requirements and coding.
It's really easy to design & read specs that tell you what something will do. It's not so easy to try to analyze what else it will do that you didn't intend.
That, in my experience at least, is where most bugs are born. Not from sloppy code, but from unanticipated conflict.
This is a lot of speculation and I would have to imagine... is incorrect. Individual engineers program to spec, not to preference. Specs are reviewed by engineers, architects, business analysts, software testers, hardware testers, etc. etc. A system as complex as a car, even the "lightweight" entertainment systems, would require stringent controls to ensure safety. Not just people making whatever changes they feel like.
From what I can judge of Elon, I bet he does meddle and poke in with the engineers. He seems like the kind of person to do that thing and yeah, when execs do that it can wreak havoc. I've had multiple instances already this month of execs over-inputting, signing us up for unrealistic timelines or making decisions that should be left to engineers.
A coordinated organization should have controls around stuff like that... a CR/CRB process that is designed to protect the organization against an individual influence like that. Remember that some of these systems, particular the drive/safety systems, are not to be treated lightly and any change would require massive amounts of vetting & testing.
To assume Elon hasn't used any features or is unaware of their flaws seems a bit naive to me. You probably engage Nav even when you don't really need it. I do sometimes. Why wouldn't he?
Large software projects that cut corners in their SDLC and processes turn to crap. A well maintained machine doesn't. And while many people will go off chasing the next shiny thing... like I said previously systems should be in place through proper project management to mitigate that. And honestly, what could be more shiny than working on Teslas?
Software is a tricky beast no doubt. You say you had to reboot your display multiple times. I think I've done it three times in 13 months... twice to show people how it could be done, once to fix a wonky issue.
So after all that... where'd the button go? Who knows. Was it some rogue agent, some engineer with a vendetta against that button and thought it should die?
Probably not.
It could've been intentionally removed based on some instructions or design that we don't have insight into. Probably, it was just a bug, an accident that would have any root cause. Software is written by humans (for now) and tested by humans (for now) and until the glorious machine revolution (and, according to the Matrix, even afterwards too) it'll have bugs despite the best practices or efforts.
Maybe some developer working on changes for a media redesign in version 7.x checked his code into the wrong branch and it got picked up in the build for 7.1. Happens all the time. And the testing team, not expecting any changes to the media center did a lighter than average regression in that area and missed that change. Now hopefully they'd be doing some level of S/W CM auditing that should pick up a code change in an unanticipated area but even that is not a guarantee that a single stressed or distracted human might have missed it in an audit.
Anyway now I'm making pretty broad assumptions about how Tesla runs their shop.
If a rogue engineer, whether working on UI design or drive systems like regen, has the ability to make changes willy-nilly on personal preferences then the wheels would be falling off these cars. Not that they're perfect (I just started a thread complaining about a bluetooth issue)... but I've seen (and worked on) worse software
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Among Tesla's early adopters, some of us have been responsible for major software projects - some much more complex than what Tesla has in their vehicles.
Major software projects are always challenging - balancing resource constraints, aggressive schedules, growing lists of functionality improvements and producing software that works.
I've had my P85 for 3 years. Early on, it was understandable that the software was missing useful features and that bugs would occasionally get into the production software. The start-stop release process (where releases would be halted to fix critical bugs) was understandable as Tesla was trying to get caught up - and get software out to the cars as quickly as possible with new releases.
But that was 3 years ago - and we still have software missing expected features (playlists, waypoints, customizable routes, ...), we are still missing major promised features (app store?), obvious bugs/design flaws are still getting into the released software (I still have to reboot the software periodically - while driving), and the navigation software is so bad that many owners prefer using the small screens on their smartphones than the built-in 17" console. The Android app is still in beta (as well as the trip planner). And owners are frustrated with simple features - like the time and temperature placement or using the standard speedometer for non-AP driving.
And with the introduction of features like summon and autopilot - the margin for error is much smaller.
Tesla isn't the only company producing complex, mission critical software. Other organizations have been doing this for much longer than Tesla.
Tesla can do better - and really needs to address these software concerns soon - especially before other manufacturers start bringing competitive EVs to the market. The Bolt is going to have both Apple CarPlay and Android Auto - and will likely have better navigation software plus playlists - and GM is planning to have that 200 mile EV out late this year. For smartphone, media player and navigation - will the $30K Bolt have better software than the much more expensive Tesla Model S and Model X?
My P85 continues to be a fantastic car. But as a software developer - I know Tesla can do much better - and hope they will get this figured out...
Major software projects are always challenging - balancing resource constraints, aggressive schedules, growing lists of functionality improvements and producing software that works.
I've had my P85 for 3 years. Early on, it was understandable that the software was missing useful features and that bugs would occasionally get into the production software. The start-stop release process (where releases would be halted to fix critical bugs) was understandable as Tesla was trying to get caught up - and get software out to the cars as quickly as possible with new releases.
But that was 3 years ago - and we still have software missing expected features (playlists, waypoints, customizable routes, ...), we are still missing major promised features (app store?), obvious bugs/design flaws are still getting into the released software (I still have to reboot the software periodically - while driving), and the navigation software is so bad that many owners prefer using the small screens on their smartphones than the built-in 17" console. The Android app is still in beta (as well as the trip planner). And owners are frustrated with simple features - like the time and temperature placement or using the standard speedometer for non-AP driving.
And with the introduction of features like summon and autopilot - the margin for error is much smaller.
Tesla isn't the only company producing complex, mission critical software. Other organizations have been doing this for much longer than Tesla.
Tesla can do better - and really needs to address these software concerns soon - especially before other manufacturers start bringing competitive EVs to the market. The Bolt is going to have both Apple CarPlay and Android Auto - and will likely have better navigation software plus playlists - and GM is planning to have that 200 mile EV out late this year. For smartphone, media player and navigation - will the $30K Bolt have better software than the much more expensive Tesla Model S and Model X?
My P85 continues to be a fantastic car. But as a software developer - I know Tesla can do much better - and hope they will get this figured out...
JenniferQ
Active Member
Very good points above. I think everyone would be a little happier if we just had communication from Tesla, say in the release notes, to explain not only what's new, but what's been deleted, changed, etc. and why.
7.0/7.1 has brought its share of UI annoyances, but I must admit that 7.1 seems A LOT LESS BUGGY than previous 6.X updates. In my book that is a huge improvement. Less buggy for me, perhaps, because I don't have Autopilot. Everything else feels rock solid, I haven't had anything go wrong, freeze or lock up, etc.
That's funny, 7.1 has suddenly created multiple problems for me such as:
- very slow response to nav requests, kind of freezing the whole center screen and not really showing that my click on a favorite, charger or recent destination was received
- forgetting what I was listening to, and defaulting to my iPhone via bluetooth or just not playing anything - especially if I was listening to FM when I got out of the car
- this afternoon even though I always have nav voice muted, suddenly blaring out the nav instructions with no way to quiet it so I rebooted the main screen
On the other hand, I'm enjoying much better supercharger routing and the garage auto-open and auto-close. I need to adjust the location, however because sometimes it tells it to close before I'm fully out while I'm still blocking the electric eye sensor, and the door remains open.
I've also noticed that entering a nav destination appears much slower with the latest software
The missing source selection button is a mistake. I usually use the right wheel on the steering wheel to change sources - and that still works (fortunately).
But without the source selection button on the touchscreen, using the media "browse" window is NOT a replacement - because not only do you have to select the source you have to select the specific item you want to play - for XM radio, you have to navigate through multiple levels of menus to get to the channel you want to listen to.
Tesla needs to restore this feature. Any change in the user interface which increases the number of selections required on the touchscreen is a usability issue - and creates more distraction for drivers. They need to be going the other direction - making the user interface EASIER to use - with fewer touches...
The missing source selection button is a mistake. I usually use the right wheel on the steering wheel to change sources - and that still works (fortunately).
But without the source selection button on the touchscreen, using the media "browse" window is NOT a replacement - because not only do you have to select the source you have to select the specific item you want to play - for XM radio, you have to navigate through multiple levels of menus to get to the channel you want to listen to.
Tesla needs to restore this feature. Any change in the user interface which increases the number of selections required on the touchscreen is a usability issue - and creates more distraction for drivers. They need to be going the other direction - making the user interface EASIER to use - with fewer touches...
travwill
Active Member
Honestly, the whole audio app/pane could use some redesign. I think they removed the source button because it was a bit of reach, and easy to hit the swap screen at times instead of source in my experience.
But, the audio app waste a ton of space, to show title info and a big album art image. It could easily have source buttons larger somewhere permanently located on it as well as a smaller/useful display of current audio info & art.
Hope this gets completely redesign in any upcoming more extensive UI release!
But, the audio app waste a ton of space, to show title info and a big album art image. It could easily have source buttons larger somewhere permanently located on it as well as a smaller/useful display of current audio info & art.
Hope this gets completely redesign in any upcoming more extensive UI release!
tstafford
Active Member
Just got the newest update. Bummed that Source Select isn't back. Seems like a bunch of updates to Summon, something to make regen better in cold weather (AWESOME!), and then adding creep to driver profile.
