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SpaceX Internet Satellite Network: Starlink

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SpaceX is going after Dish Network. I doubt SpaceX is lying about the issues involved.

Probably not lying. But, like the Tobacco industry commissioning a report on cancer or the petroleum industry commissioning a report on climate change, one can't simply take Dish or SpaceX at face value on this one.

Anyway, the actual issue SX has here is that the contemplated 5G network would effectively provide an alternate service to customers, and thus reduce the take on Starlink subscriptions. The 'harmful interference' angle is just a clever way to bring the issue forward. (SX can't really complain about Verizon's 5G home network, for instance, because its a different Hz). And Charlie is generally a tough nut, so it probably feels good for SX to complain at the FCC about him. 😛

There's also a bit of nuance in the numbers too. Starlink is really only the right service for a small percentage of the country's population (generally low density regions) and for the most part the Dish 5G network is going to cover everyone but that small percentage of the country (the high density regions). So on the Venn diagram of practical subscriber base, there's not a lot of overlap there anyway.

It would also be interesting to see what the SX team could come up with if they actually tried to solve the problem of terrestrial 12gig interference instead of just having the lawyers complain that it will break the network. They sure figured out nefarious interference in the Ukraine pretty fast...
 
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Anyway, the actual issue SX has here is that the contemplated 5G network would effectively provide an alternate service to customers, and thus reduce the take on Starlink subscriptions. The 'harmful interference' angle is just a clever way to bring the issue forward. (SX can't really complain about Verizon's 5G home network, for instance, because its a different Hz). And Charlie is generally a tough nut, so it probably feels good for SX to complain at the FCC about him. 😛
???
How is a high power transmitter at your frequency in your beam (or side lobes) not an actual issue?
Cell towers are both closer to the user terminals and likely higher power than the satellites.
According to SpaceX’s study, harmful interference from a high-power mobile service in the 12 GHz band would extend more than 13 miles from the macro base station in unobstructed conditions.
It would also be interesting to see what the SX team could come up with if they actually tried to solve the problem of terrestrial 12gig interference instead of just having the lawyers complain that it will break the network. They sure figured out nefarious interference in the Ukraine pretty fast...
Again ???
Was Russia transmitting continuously on all bands from multiple locations simultaneously?
Signal vs noise. Sure, you may be able to work around it, but something is going to suffer (like data rate).

There's also a bit of nuance in the numbers too. Starlink is really only the right service for a small percentage of the country's population (generally low density regions) and for the most part the Dish 5G network is going to cover everyone but that small percentage of the country (the high density regions). So on the Venn diagram of practical subscriber base, there's not a lot of overlap there anyway.
Starlink has a user per area limit, but for that number of users in that area it may be better than the alternative. 5G interference woukd also mean blackout zones for mobile, non-fixed, users.
There is also the spillover effect at the fringes to consider. Cell towers along interstate in rural area, outer perimeter of metro area.
 
Probably not lying. But, like the Tobacco industry commissioning a report on cancer or the petroleum industry commissioning a report on climate change, one can't simply take Dish or SpaceX at face value on this one.
Well, I get your point about the "commissioner" of said report having a vested interest... but to compare SpaceX to either the Tobacco companies or Big Oil seems a little out of line, given what we now know about both of those industries. SpaceX hasn't demonstrated anything like that behavior.... especially given both of those industries in your analogies literally knowingly put people's lives at risk and obfuscated such.

In my view, SpaceX deserves more of an "innocent until proven guilty" characterization.

Anyway, the actual issue SX has here is that the contemplated 5G network would effectively provide an alternate service to customers, and thus reduce the take on Starlink subscriptions. The 'harmful interference' angle is just a clever way to bring the issue forward. (SX can't really complain about Verizon's 5G home network, for instance, because its a different Hz). And Charlie is generally a tough nut, so it probably feels good for SX to complain at the FCC about him. 😛
Well, you surmise that's the actual issue, but unless you have some insider knowledge, I think your asserting such is suspect. And as @mongo points out, there's some technical validity to the issues raised.
 
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How is a high power transmitter at your frequency in your beam (or side lobes) not an actual issue?

Of course its an issue...You're over indexing on the trees here; my whole point was forest-level. ;)

To go analogy on this one, SpaceX is complaining that Dish is making it impossible for their subscribers to wear their sunglasses, and that's [generally] true. Its also true that most SX subscribers live in the dark (in the analogy context) and thus the sunglasses argument is largely irrelevant.

I think your asserting such is suspect.

I think your interpretation of my point is missing rigor.


To be clear, I have no love for Dish or Charlie, and specifically in this space. His MO is buying up spectrum and using it as an asset to be leveraged...historically, I might add, to various dubious degrees. So its not like SX's frustration with Charlie is unwarranted here, and its right to call it out.

And on the flip side, SX's response is exactly the right thing to do for SX--they're trying to protect their potential subscriber base, and rooting that business case protection on a legitimate technical concern will be much more productive than just "Charlie is being mean to us", which is often the logic used when other entities complain about SX.

But...let's not pretend this is anything other than SX looking out for #1.

Starlink has a user per area limit, but for that number of users in that area it may be better than the alternative.

From an either/or perspective, 'The greater good' is always going to be better served by expanding terrestrial connectivity when that's a viable option, especially when that terrestrial solution is mobile. For sure in this case some prospective starlink subscribers would get screwed in the deal but that's not evidence of terrestrial>satellite being broken logic.

From a technical perspective its also worth noting we're talking about high frequency stuff here, and that suffers more from things like occlusions and range than the frequencies we typically use. That actually ends up as a win-win, complementary service set from a user perspective--A user is either getting a strong 5G link (that will nuke a starlink signal that the user wouldn't need anyway) or they're not going to get a strong 5G signal (in which case their starlink UT will be fine).

The big downside, to drive the point home, is that necessarily results fewer starlink subscribers. So again, the real issue SX hs is not a technical one, it is a business one.

Signal vs noise. Sure, you may be able to work around it, but something is going to suffer (like data rate).

Sure. And on the edges of coverage where preferred services might overlap, the SX engineers can surely come up with some good technical solutions to minimize the suffering to the point where there's no practical downside.
 
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I think your interpretation of my point is missing rigor.
Allow me to be rigorously clear:

Making categorical assertions of what the actual issue is that concerns Tesla, without being in the inner circle of Tesla folks who know for a certainty, is speculation.

Now, you may have a good argument to support your supposition, but that's exactly what it is.
 
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Tom's Guide on Starlink speeds worldwide with some cool nuggets:

"In Mexico, Starlink had the fastest satellite internet in North America during the first quarter of this year with a median download speed of 105.91 Mbps followed by Starlink in Canada and the U.S. However, in Puerto Rico, HughesNet took the top spot with download speeds of 20.54 Mbps."

Puerto Rico is probably impacted by the lack of laser links. Local ground stations need to use preexisting links to the continent.
 
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FCC approves Starlink on moving objects
I can stream it in my box
I can stream it on my yacht
I can stream it on the train
I can stream it on a plane (pending FAA cert)
I can stream it here and there
I can stream it anywhere
(At least until Dish steps on the frequency band)
SpaceX receives FCC approval to provide Starlink service on planes, boats, and other vehicles in motion

Well, not yet. Moving applications need a new dish. The new terminals are to operate only in the 12.2-12.7GHz hand, whereas the current terminals are in a wide range.

The new terminals will also have "inertial measurement unit sensors" to correct and "detect mispointing, and cease transmission well within the 100 microsecond threshold to comply with requirements."

And I also think that Starlink will have to make new mounts for each specific moving application.

I suspect Starlink will take their time bringing out purpose built dishys for RVs in motion and small boats. I suspect they will instead focus on large commercial applications first like airplanes and ships.
 
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Well, not yet. Moving applications need a new dish. The new terminals are to operate only in the 12.2-12.7GHz hand, whereas the current terminals are in a wide range.

The new terminals will also have "inertial measurement unit sensors" to correct and "detect mispointing, and cease transmission well within the 100 microsecond threshold to comply with requirements."

And I also think that Starlink will have to make new mounts for each specific moving application.

I suspect Starlink will take their time bringing out purpose built dishys for RVs in motion and small boats. I suspect they will instead focus on large commercial applications first like airplanes and ships.
Oh, did you find the filing?

Gotcha, 12.2 - 12.7 is the top two channels of the current downlink frequency band, so that's a software configuration on the satellite side of things.

IMU is definitely helpful for pointing, esp if the system operates half duplex so it can't use recieved signal strength to detect pointing error during transmit. Partly depends on vehicle angular rates.

For non-aeronautical applications, it seems a generic IP67 housing would be sufficient. Though a hemispherical may be needed for mechanical movement to keep polarization alignment?
 
I tried as objectively as possible to read and comprehend both Dish’s and SpaceX’s positions….it is confusing. In the end, this is what I sent to our Congressional delegation (Alaska has two Senators and ZERO Representatives):

Dear Senator Murkowski -
With consternation and, I admit, more than a little confusion, I have reviewed the arguments put forth both by Dish and by Starlink regarding the 12GHz Spectrum kerfuffle. To the best of my ability, it appears that Dish is in the wrong and Starlink’s arguments are valid. As you will, I hope, recall with fondness, we here on the Denali Highway have very, very little other than peace, quiet and serenity. No electric or gas or school or police services - and the few of us making our lives and livelihoods here have been looking forward with great enthusiasm the ability to obtain the kind of high-speed internet services Alaskans and other Americans living in less remote locations take for granted. That is the promise that Starlink - and NOT Dish - offers both to us as well as to other Alaskans living in similarly remote locations.
We hope you and the rest of our Alaskan members of Congress will support us and dissuade the FCC from enacting the proposed changes.

Thanking you for your attention I am,

Most sincerely,

Audie Bakewell
President, Paxson Community Association
Owner, Denali Highway Cabins
 
I tried as objectively as possible to read and comprehend both Dish’s and SpaceX’s positions….it is confusing.

They most certainly are confusing. Unfortunately your case, while eloquently conveyed, is not fully baked.

There is 0% chance dish network will deploy 12gig mmWave service along the Denali highway (and probably anywhere in AK) and so there is zero possible conflict with your not-yet-available Starlink service.

The big upside to high frequency mobile from Dish’s perspective is the ability to flow much more traffic…at the expense of some pretty serious downsides, like range and occlusion susceptibility. Thus, the Dish use case is exclusively high population density areas where existing mobile networks are overloaded. Yea there’s some overlap with aspirational Starlink users there too, but those users will certainly have, at a minimum, an equivalent-to-Starlink option so it’s really a non-issue at that point.
 
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Upload cat pics?
Environment isn't conducive to RFC 1149 either.ou don’t know what THIS is, in one of our cabins June 12th & 13th:

Smarty pants. 😁

I’ll bet you don’t know what THIS is, in one of our cabins June 12 & 13:
 

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Actually those statements of mine above were copied from reddit. I don't vouch for their accuracy, now that's I've glanced through the FCC filing.
Thanks!
So many footnotes...
Highlights:
Protests rejected:
We deny the Petitions to Deny or Defer in Part filed by RS Access, LLC (RS Access) in the two SpaceX and the Kepler proceedings, the Petitions to Deny or Hold in Abeyance filed by ViaSat, Inc. (Viasat) in both SpaceX license proceedings, the DISH Network Corporation (DISH) Petition to Deny Waiver Request filed in opposition to SpaceX’s enterprise application, and the DISH Petition to Deny in Part filed against the Kepler application.
Reddit was off base:
Already has IMU (sort of expected that)
In response, SpaceX argues that Viasat submits an interference analysis based on the erroneous assumption that SpaceX ESIMs will not operate as designed.63 SpaceX contends that its advanced phased arrays use software to track its NGSO satellite and platform motion, and that they observe main beam parameters, minimum elevation, and GSO protection requirements.64 SpaceX asserts that its antennas comply with Commission rules and do not “necessitate additional requirements on ESIM communications with NGSO FSS space stations.”65 SpaceX notes that its ESIM terminals incorporate industry-standard technologies such as micro-electro-mechanical system (MEMS) inertial measurement unit (IMU) sensors and GPS receivers as well as advanced phased array antennas with efficient sidelobes to maintain correct point, detect mispointing, and cease transmission well within the 100-microsecond threshold to comply with requirements set forth in the Commission’s rules.66
Full spectrum is allowed (required if 12.2 - 12.7 is used)

Third, these authorizations are issued on the applicants’ representation that the statements contained in the application are true and that the undertakings described will be carried out in good faith including, but not limited to, the applicants’ representation that their NGSO systems have been engineered to achieve a high degree of flexibility to facilitate spectrum sharing with other authorized satellite and terrestrial systems.77 In line with these representations, we require, to the extent that any end-user terminals is capable of operating, e.g., receiving, in 12.2-12.7 GHz must also be capable of such operation in 10.7-12.2 GHz.78 We do not require ESIMs capable of operating only in the 10.7-12.2 GHz band to be capable of operating in the 12 GHz band.79
 
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They most certainly are confusing. Unfortunately your case, while eloquently conveyed, is not fully baked.

There is 0% chance dish network will deploy 12gig mmWave service along the Denali highway (and probably anywhere in AK) and so there is zero possible conflict with your not-yet-available Starlink service.

The big upside to high frequency mobile from Dish’s perspective is the ability to flow much more traffic…at the expense of some pretty serious downsides, like range and occlusion susceptibility. Thus, the Dish use case is exclusively high population density areas where existing mobile networks are overloaded. Yea there’s some overlap with aspirational Starlink users there too, but those users will certainly have, at a minimum, an equivalent-to-Starlink option so it’s really a non-issue at that point.
That’s good to know….unless, of course, SpaceX’s viability becomes tenuous or worse because of the purported occlusion of its services in its more populated locations.
 
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