SpaceX (out of main)

[Artful Dodger]

Where did you get icing/ frozen NTO from?
My understanding (which matches the details in two of your links) is the one way valve leaked allowing liquid NTO to collect on the wrong side. When the high pressure Helium was released, this slug of liquid accelerated into the Titanium value and an explosion resulted.

A slug of frozen NTO formed due to the leaky valve. It smashed into the titanium valve under pressure with enough energy to cause the failure and initiate the explosion.

Here's the source article: (quoted below)

Faulty valve blamed for Crew Dragon test accident - SpaceNews.com

"SpaceX said the most likely cause of the explosion was when a “leaking component” allowed nitrogen tetroxide (NTO) oxidizer into helium tubes during processing. When the system was pressurized just before the planned ignition, a “slug” of NTO was driven at high speed into a titanium check valve, causing structural failure of the valve and igniting it, triggering the explosion.

“When you pushed the slug [of NTO] into the check valve, it basically creates an explosion,” said Hans Koenigsmann, vice president of build and flight reliability at SpaceX, during a call with reporters.

"He said SpaceX, with the assistance of NASA, confirmed this scenario in testing at the company’s McGregor, Texas, test site. “We found out that when the pressure is pretty high, the temperature is high, and you drive a slug with a lot of energy into a titanium component, you can have these rather violent reactions,” he said.​

The valves have now been replaced with rupture discs to prevent any future reoccurance.

Cheers!

 

[mongo]

A slug of frozen NTO formed due to the leaky valve. It smashed into the titanium valve under pressure with enough energy to cause the failure and initiate the explosion.

Here's the source article: (quoted below)

Faulty valve blamed for Crew Dragon test accident - SpaceNews.com

"SpaceX said the most likely cause of the explosion was when a “leaking component” allowed nitrogen tetroxide (NTO) oxidizer into helium tubes during processing. When the system was pressurized just before the planned ignition, a “slug” of NTO was driven at high speed into a titanium check valve, causing structural failure of the valve and igniting it, triggering the explosion.

“When you pushed the slug [of NTO] into the check valve, it basically creates an explosion,” said Hans Koenigsmann, vice president of build and flight reliability at SpaceX, during a call with reporters.

"He said SpaceX, with the assistance of NASA, confirmed this scenario in testing at the company’s McGregor, Texas, test site. “We found out that when the pressure is pretty high, the temperature is high, and you drive a slug with a lot of energy into a titanium component, you can have these rather violent reactions,” he said.​

The valves have now been replaced with rupture discs to prevent any future reoccurance.

Cheers!

Yah, I see "slug", I do not see "frozen". So I was asking if you had a source more recent that SpaceX's:

From Explosion that destroyed SpaceX Crew Dragon is blamed on leaking valve
"We believe that we had a liquid slug of the (NTO) in the pressurization system," Koenigsmann said. "When we opened the valves and pressurized the propellant system, we think that this slug was driven back into the check valve. ... That basically destroyed the check valve and caused an explosion."

For reference:
Slug: (5.b. a detached mass of fluid (such as water vapor or oil) that causes impact (as in a circulating system) per Definition of SLUG

NTO freezes at 11.34F, -11.4C sea level. This test was in Florida in April. Line pressure unknown.

 

[jeewee3000]

Elon threw SLS in NASA's face, and even added a troll-face.

[CNN Interview] Elon Musk: Starship could take people to orbit within a year : spacex

Loved it.

 

[CanadaEV]

Scott Manly says Boeing lost full control of their Starliner when launched to orbit. It will return safely, but it will not be able to dock with the ISS as intended.
This is only tangentially relevant to Tesla investing, but it actually does make a difference to investor confidence that Musk companies are able to perform when, in this case, Boeing cannot.

 

[Singuy]

Scott Manly says Boeing lost full control of their Starliner when launched to orbit. It will return safely, but it will not be able to dock with the ISS as intended.
This is only tangentially relevant to Tesla investing, but it actually does make a difference to investor confidence that Musk companies are able to perform when, in this case, Boeing cannot.

2x the funding, 2x the claimed expertise, total failure.

What this display is the prowess of what top talent can achieve. The best engineers in the world wants to work for Elon and they get *sugar* done. Tesla just bitch slapped the best what Germans had to offer, now SpaceX just bitched slap the incumbent Boeing. It's freaken Boeing man, which once held the title as having the best engineers on the planet.

 

[SMAlset]

Scott Manly says Boeing lost full control of their Starliner when launched to orbit. It will return safely, but it will not be able to dock with the ISS as intended.
This is only tangentially relevant to Tesla investing, but it actually does make a difference to investor confidence that Musk companies are able to perform when, in this case, Boeing cannot.

SpaceX has had a similar issue in the past where fuel got expended quicker than anticipated. Not as crucial as not being able to dock with ISS, but things like that do happen. SpaceX has had some huge “failures” too where things have gone bad, more recently when things have blown up, but it’s a learning process and understood as such. I’m not sure investors look at this latest Boeing space incident as a big negative. Now the plane issue with production halted, companies suing and the govt delaying clearing the design changes is more of an issue I would think.

 

[CanadaEV]

2x the funding, 2x the claimed expertise, total failure.

What this display is the prowess of what top talent can achieve. The best engineers in the world wants to work for Elon and they get *sugar* done. Tesla just bitch slapped the best what Germans had to offer, now SpaceX just bitched slap the incumbent Boeing. It's freaken Boeing man, which once held the title as having the best engineers on the planet.

Yes. Boeing demanded and got almost $2B more to develop Starliner, and will charge 60% more for the seat price. So far, it doesn't look like that is good value for the money.

 

[SMAlset]

Yes. Boeing demanded and got almost $2B more to develop Starliner, and will charge 60% more for the seat price. So far, it doesn't look like that is good value for the money.

True but NASA can’t rely on just one provider so expect them to be in the mix regardless. Think they know that from having to rely on the Russians.

 

[CanadaEV]

SpaceX has had a similar issue in the past where fuel got expended quicker than anticipated. Not as crucial as not being able to dock with ISS, but things like that do happen. SpaceX has had some huge “failures” too where things have gone bad, more recently when things have blown up, but it’s a learning process and understood as such. I’m not sure investors look at this latest Boeing space incident as a big negative. Now the plane issue with production halted, companies suing and the govt delaying clearing the design changes is more of an issue I would think.

For sure, it does not work to gloat over company successes or competitor failures at any time, and especially not in space projects. The only relevance here is that Tesla is currently advancing, and investor confidence is part of what will either keep the momentum going or not. The Boeing failure is merely a short term signal in that way.

 

[StealthP3D]

I’m not sure investors look at this latest Boeing space incident as a big negative. Now the plane issue with production halted, companies suing and the govt delaying clearing the design changes is more of an issue I would think.

From the little I've read about the recent failure to reach proper orbit for rendezvous, I take it their software is not very good. Ironically, this seems related to the same problem they have with their Dreamliner.

Not good. Boeing management has changed for the worse in the last decade or two. I wouldn't touch that stock with a 10-foot pole.

 

[CanadaEV]

True but NASA can’t rely on just one provider so expect them to be in the mix regardless. Think they know that from having to rely on the Russians.

Agreed, and I wish them well, certainly not ill. However for Tesla investors this is a minor supporting signal about corporate competence.

 

[Singuy]

SpaceX has had a similar issue in the past where fuel got expended quicker than anticipated. Not as crucial as not being able to dock with ISS, but things like that do happen. SpaceX has had some huge “failures” too where things have gone bad, more recently when things have blown up, but it’s a learning process and understood as such. I’m not sure investors look at this latest Boeing space incident as a big negative. Now the plane issue with production halted, companies suing and the govt delaying clearing the design changes is more of an issue I would think.

Different corporate cultures. SpaceX under Elon are working on aggressive schedules so they are not afraid of breaking things. Boeing on the other hand double, triple, quadruple checks everything with the typical red tape surrounding everything little things. You expect SpaceX to blow things up just to learn from it, hence they leap frogged every company when it comes to delivering what is promised.

Have a friend who works with SpaceX on the commercial crew program. He audits spaceX since he works for Nasa, and absolutely hates the spaceX corporate culture of what I just said.

 

[SMAlset]

Agreed, and I wish them well, certainly not ill. However for Tesla investors this is a minor supporting signal about corporate competence.

Tesla and SpaceX are two different companies however. Smart people at both companies but one doesn't really have anything to do with the other other than Elon. You don't see comparisons being made to The Boring Company. For a Tesla investor I don't see why people would base confidence in Tesla because SpaceX can land reusable boosters. Tesla stands on it's own and coming into it's own.

 

[KarenRei]

Has there been any indication as to whether they plan to allow Boeing to launch crew on the #StarlinerMAX without further testing or not?

 

[lascavarian]

Has there been any indication as to whether they plan to allow Boeing to launch crew on the #StarlinerMAX without further testing or not?

Yes. At the news conference yesterday, they clearly left open the possibility that they will get enough data from the launch and landing to go forward.

I hope hope hope they reconsider. This was 2 failures in process and an abbreviated mission schedule which was to be 2 weeks but now much less.

Really catastrophic FU with the mission clock which could not be overridden from the ground because their plan allowed for loss of radio contact. Loss of fuel is a major thing in my thinking but maybe running low on fuel while in orbit is not a biggy /s

I was gobsmacked when the NASA director used the 20 plus yr old processes of the Space Shuttle (which I believe lost 2 complete crews) to justify negating the necessity of flight testing the automated docking process.

Seems to me the point of the automated docking process is in the event of an incapacitated crew... at least partially. NASA is saying no need to flight qualify the automated docking system because the crew is the backup.

PBS posted the whole news conference on YouTube and it is a classic complete with quotes from SNL. Again, I hope NASA has a more serious discussion. My view was that like me some of the media were in disbelief at what they were hearing. Maybe I am misreading things.

 

[lascavarian]

Yes. At the news conference yesterday, they clearly left open the possibility that they will get enough data from the launch and landing to go forward.

I hope hope hope they reconsider. This was 2 failures in process and an abbreviated mission schedule which was to be 2 weeks but now much less.

Really catastrophic FU with the mission clock which could not be overridden from the ground because their plan allowed for loss of radio contact. Loss of fuel is a major thing in my thinking but maybe running low on fuel while in orbit is not a biggy /s

I was gobsmacked when the NASA director used the 20 plus yr old processes of the Space Shuttle (which I believe lost 2 complete crews) to justify negating the necessity of flight testing the automated docking process.

Seems to me the point of the automated docking process is in the event of an incapacitated crew... at least partially. NASA is saying no need to flight qualify the automated docking system because the crew is the backup.

PBS posted the whole news conference on YouTube and it is a classic complete with quotes from SNL. Again, I hope NASA has a more serious discussion. My view was that like me some of the media were in disbelief at what they were hearing. Maybe I am misreading things.

Just as a followup, at 29:45 Tom Costello (experienced reporter with NBC) asks 2 important questions.

Earlier it was stated that there was about 7 minutes available to react to this anomaly. The crew would have to figure out what had happened and then develop a corrective approach and implement it while being out of contact with ground flight control for some or all of this process. I know space is hard but in 2019 as a standard accepted plan for there to be lapses in basic communications is a bit shocking to me.