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SpaceX vs. Everyone - ULA, NG, Boeing, Lockheed, etc.

bxr140

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Nov 18, 2014
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First, welcome. Always good to have new perspectives in the forum.

FWIW, I'm aware of at least one startup that has been founded with the intention to build its business on the Startship Platform. What they are building will fit in Starship, and only starship, if I'm understanding it correctly. Several other startups have mentioned roadmaps that start with current launch providers but mention how they will utilize starship when it becomes available.

Yeah, there's definitely some startups basing their future on SS, though not nearly enough to drive any kind of SS demand or development timeline. AST is probably the biggest "gotta have SS" right now--the big mountain for them is that there's zero chance their business model closes without the aspirational mass-to-orbit price of SS. If SS doesn't achieve the aspirational $$$, AST is going to have a hard time.

Tough place to be for them.

This is a common path in technology when a breakthrough drops prices by %90. Many businesses that were not viable before suddenly are viable and you have a whole new race of companies that spring up to build on the new technology, or in this case the new platform of Starship.

I think the big question mark here is how the [theoretical] significant reduction in launch cost actually gets realized as game-changing program cost reduction by a customer. Because the launch portion of a program cost is so low to begin with (call it 10-20%), that's simply not where the real savings is going to come from. The ground segment also makes up a reasonable chunk of a program (real hand-wavey, call it the ~same as the launch segment), so there's not a hug opportunity there unless someone is building out a massive ground network with internally built equipment (like Starlink). The satellite segment is the biggest piece of the pie, and parts make up a significant portion of that piece--for traditional space programs, 75% or so of the total satellite segment cost is the bill of materials for the sats, or near as makes no difference for this convo, ~half of a program's total cost.

That's the big egg that everyone in the industry is trying to crack. Obviously SX has done it, but also at significant internal expense and on a pretty indeterminant timeline, and a (and probably the) significant reason they can bring the BOM cost way down is because of the ginormous number of satellites they're building. One failure makes no difference to the constellation. (Obviously there's other big things, but I'm getting sidetracked...)

Anyway, save for Amazon...sort of...nobody else has the internal funding or the gumption to take that leap of faith and dump a truckload of investment into an idea like "send up a bunch of automotive grade and digikey parts and hope real hard that they last long enough", because everyone else has traditional beancounters controlling the money (and those kinds of folks aren't the kind of person that will just do whatever their CEO wants to do).

Or my favorite idea: A massive telescope. With Raptor Vacuum and a full load of fuel (using on orbit refueling) you could place it in whatever orbit is ideal, maybe somewhere that gives you permanent shade from the sun. EG: Instead of making something that fits in a starship, make something that IS the front end of the starship. This gives you twice the diameter of Hubble for your mirror.

A telescope is actually a great thought experiment as a potential SS use case. If Webb is any indication we're at a point now where it's more useful to have multi-faceted primaries made up of more, smaller individual mirrors vs the single super-duper Hubble flavor. Because the multi-facet primary can be launched in something other than their operational configuration during launch, physical accommodation has become much less of a driving requirement. We're also going to get to a point fairly soon where on orbit assembly is tenable, so having the muti-faceted primaries in some tightly controlled stowed configuration during launch (like Webb) also isn't going to be absolutely necessary either.

What that means is getting a telescope up really becomes a mass problem and not a volume problem. Certainly a single SS can better deploy more mass vs multiple F9's (For instance), though given that the last big ass telescope that got built was $10B or something, an extra $50-100M or whatever to lift "more than Webb" mass on a 5m rocket isn't really moving any needles.

The farther future is likely a multi-vehicle telescope (rather than just a bigger aperture), where a number of satellites hundreds or thousands of miles apart with tightly monitored geometry create a massive sized virtual aperture...and that kind of concept also isn't significantly enabled by SS.
 
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scaesare

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A telescope is actually a great thought experiment as a potential SS use case. If Webb is any indication we're at a point now where it's more useful to have multi-faceted primaries made up of more, smaller individual mirrors vs the single super-duper Hubble flavor. Because the multi-facet primary can be launched in something other than their operational configuration during launch, physical accommodation has become much less of a driving requirement. We're also going to get to a point fairly soon where on orbit assembly is tenable, so having the muti-faceted primaries in some tightly controlled stowed configuration during launch (like Webb) also isn't going to be absolutely necessary either.

What that means is getting a telescope up really becomes a mass problem and not a volume problem. Certainly a single SS can better deploy more mass vs multiple F9's (For instance), though given that the last big ass telescope that got built was $10B or something, an extra $50-100M or whatever to lift "more than Webb" mass on a 5m rocket isn't really moving any needles.

The farther future is likely a multi-vehicle telescope (rather than just a bigger aperture), where a number of satellites hundreds or thousands of miles apart with tightly monitored geometry create a massive sized virtual aperture...and that kind of concept also isn't significantly enabled by SS.
This is interesting. All I've read suggests that the size of the Hubble primary mirror really is about he limit for a single optical piece from a manufacturing/logistics standpoint... or at least was.

As you point out, the desire for a larger primary mirror dictated the need for a segmented array you could unfold and align in space. So I think the JWST may now be pushing the limit for what a traditional rocket fairing (~5-6m) can handle. So, it's current mirror array may be the largest that they could practically fold and fit.

But it's not clear that they've reached any real limit to the number of segments that can make up a mirror. So, it would be interesting to see a foldable array "JWST II" squeezed into SS that unfolds in to a 12m primary...
 

mongo

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May 3, 2017
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This is interesting. All I've read suggests that the size of the Hubble primary mirror really is about he limit for a single optical piece from a manufacturing/logistics standpoint... or at least was.

As you point out, the desire for a larger primary mirror dictated the need for a segmented array you could unfold and align in space. So I think the JWST may now be pushing the limit for what a traditional rocket fairing (~5-6m) can handle. So, it's current mirror array may be the largest that they could practically fold and fit.

But it's not clear that they've reached any real limit to the number of segments that can make up a mirror. So, it would be interesting to see a foldable array "JWST II" squeezed into SS that unfolds in to a 12m primary...
Gotta be limit of space (spy sat) mirrors.
Hubble's primary mirror is 2.4m and is cira 1978.
There were 4m primaries in use before then.
Multiple modern terrestrial telescopes have 8.2m single piece mirrors.
JWST is 6.5m .
 
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GSP

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Gotta be limit of space (spy sat) mirrors.
Hubble's primary mirror is 2.4m and is cira 1978.
There were 4m primaries in use before then.
Multiple modern terrestrial telescopes have 8.2m single piece mirrors.
JWST is 6.5m .
@scaesare - This is a bit OT, but years ago I read a biography of George Ellery Hale. Over his lifetime, he built the world’s largest telescope four times. He started at a very tender age, and the last two were the Hooker 100” and the Mt. Palomar 200”. IIRC they were single piece mirrors. Link if interested:

Explorer of the Universe: A Biography of George Ellery Hale (History of Modern Physics and Astronomy Vol. 14) Explorer of the Universe: A Biography of George Ellery Hale (History of Modern Physics and Astronomy Vol. 14): Wright, Helen: 9781563962493: Amazon.com: Books

GSP
 

scaesare

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Mar 14, 2013
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Gotta be limit of space (spy sat) mirrors.
Hubble's primary mirror is 2.4m and is cira 1978.
There were 4m primaries in use before then.
Multiple modern terrestrial telescopes have 8.2m single piece mirrors.
JWST is 6.5m .
I'm sure there is a limit to the number of mirror segments, just not sure that they've hit it from a "management and alignment" perspective, or that it was jsut what JWST could manage to cram in to a foldable chassis.

So my point weas in response to the comment that "having the muti-faceted primaries in some tightly controlled stowed configuration during launch (like Webb) also isn't going to be absolutely necessary either."... SS may allow you to deploy 6.5 in a non-folding configuration. But it may also allow an even larger primary in the Origami configuration.

If JWST at 6.5m can do things fround based scopes at 8.2m can only dream of... imagine what a 12m space platform might do...
 
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scaesare

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Mar 14, 2013
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NoVA
@scaesare - This is a bit OT, but years ago I read a biography of George Ellery Hale. Over his lifetime, he built the world’s largest telescope four times. He started at a very tender age, and the last two were the Hooker 100” and the Mt. Palomar 200”. IIRC they were single piece mirrors. Link if interested:

Explorer of the Universe: A Biography of George Ellery Hale (History of Modern Physics and Astronomy Vol. 14) Explorer of the Universe: A Biography of George Ellery Hale (History of Modern Physics and Astronomy Vol. 14): Wright, Helen: 9781563962493: Amazon.com: Books

GSP
Ah very cool... thanks. I'll try and check it out...
 

mongo

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May 3, 2017
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Michigan
I'm sure there is a limit to the number of mirror segments, just not sure that they've hit it from a "management and alignment" perspective, or that it was jsut what JWST could manage to cram in to a foldable chassis.

So my point weas in response to the comment that "having the muti-faceted primaries in some tightly controlled stowed configuration during launch (like Webb) also isn't going to be absolutely necessary either."... SS may allow you to deploy 6.5 in a non-folding configuration. But it may also allow an even larger primary in the Origami configuration.

If JWST at 6.5m can do things fround based scopes at 8.2m can only dream of... imagine what a 12m space platform might do...
Indeed, the largest terrestrial are multisegment. I was addressing "All I've read suggests that the size of the Hubble primary mirror really is about he limit for a single optical piece from a manufacturing/logistics standpoint... or at least was." The limit was logistics i.e. getting it to space.
With SS, a larger than JWST single piece mirror is technically possible.
 
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scaesare

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Mar 14, 2013
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Indeed, the largest terrestrial are multisegment. I was addressing "All I've read suggests that the size of the Hubble primary mirror really is about he limit for a single optical piece from a manufacturing/logistics standpoint... or at least was." The limit was logistics i.e. getting it to space.
With SS, a larger than JWST single piece mirror is technically possible.
Gotcha.

Well, I just went and looked and there are some 8.2m single mirror telescopes... wow.
 

ecarfan

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Moderator
“Woah” indeed!

Berger’s speculative list of possible buyers is interesting. Personally I think the most likely scenario is that Boeing wants to get out of the rocket business and Lockheed will buy it out.

The idea of Amazon buying ULA seems bizarre; sure Amazon wants to launch a lot of Kuiper missions but it needs to do it as cost effectively as possible to compete with Starlink and ULA does not have—and may never have—a fully reusable rocket. The partial reusability of Vulcan is years away from being proven.

I also don’t understand why BO would want to buy ULA; Bezos knows that 100% reusability is essential for future success.
 
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bxr140

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Nov 18, 2014
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Bay Area
Due to, capability, cost and reliability, hard to understand why anyone would choose someone other than SpaceX to launch their payloads.

Off the top of my head…

National security:
—The US government desires multiple launchers. They're always going to pay a premium to make sure that exists.
—The EU wants to maintain launch sovereignty. They're always going to subsidize Ariane to make sure that exists.
—Same goes with the Japanese with Mitsubishi.

Orbit & TImeline:
—Sometimes you don't want to compromise on ideal orbit or launch date just because a SX ride is cheaper. That's the market the smaller launchers are trying to address

Politics/Optics:
—Elon is a dick (he'd agree); some entities are willing to spend a premium elsewhere on principal.
—SX is notoriously technically bullheaded/inflexible. Some entities are willing to spend a premium elsewhere to be more in the driver's seat. (To their credit, they’re much more flexible/accommodating on certain things)
—The court of public opinion is brutal. Some entities <cough...Kuiper...cough> feel the premium elsewhere offsets the negative optics.
 

Grendal

SpaceX Moderator
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Jan 31, 2012
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I agree with bxr-140. Just like Tesla wants and likes competition; SpaceX has a strong advantage but they do not want to be the sole supplier for orbital launches. Historically, ULA did fight and do a lot to undercut SpaceX getting a piece of their market (tesla faced a similar situation as well) but if you actually care about humanity becoming multi-planetary then there is plenty of market for competitors to do their thing as well. The reality is (again, just like Tesla with the car market) that SpaceX is the market leader and that is not going to go away. Their position is solid and stable now. Starship will create its own market as it comes online. Neither vehicle needs to be the sole supplier for getting to orbit. Elon and SpaceX has their goal of creating the system that will hopefully get humanity to the Moon and Mars permanently. Beyond that, I'm excited to see them get an expedition to every moon, beyond sending lightweight satellites taking pictures. ULA is moving to Vulcan. So I hope that whoever ends up owning the company does some useful things with it besides government/military launches.
 

ecarfan

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Moderator
So I hope that whoever ends up owning the company does some useful things with it besides government/military launches.
I agree, but if ULA does not achieve partial reusability with Vulcan in a year or two, and then full reusability long term (which will require development of a completely new vehicle!) their only customer will be the US government because SpaceX launches will be far less costly. With BO focusing on full reusability for New Glenn they can probably survive long term, but ULA does not have any vehicles that will be able to compete in the open market. A few small sat launch companies may survive, but not many.
 
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Grendal

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I agree, but if ULA does not achieve partial reusability with Vulcan in a year or two, and then full reusability long term (which will require development of a completely new vehicle!) their only customer will be the US government because SpaceX launches will be far less costly. With BO focusing on full reusability for New Glenn they can probably survive long term, but ULA does not have any vehicles that will be able to compete in the open market. A few small sat launch companies may survive, but not many.
BO will fail at full reusability with New Glenn. The fuel margins will not justify it. They have yet to prove that the fuel margins on NG's booster will justify its recovery. Hopefully they pull it off. I'm certainly not against someone other SpaceX making their own F9 system that recovers the booster. It's just guesswork until a single launch happens with the BE-4 engines. How efficient those engines actually are will determine whether they have fuel margins for recovery.

I was using the Tesla comparison and it applies here as well. Tesla vehicles can be as efficient as they are because they are relentless in their push for improvements in every aspect of the vehicle. F9 shows that same relentless desire to squeeze out every bit of energy from all parts of their rocket. Maybe that is happening over at BO on the down low, but I'm skeptical.

Show me the money! We'll know a lot more after Vulcan finally launches.
 
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bxr140

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BO will fail at full reusability with New Glenn.

Full reusability was never part of NG--its pretty bizarre it actually keeps coming up here TBH. BO, like everyone else including SX, realized that for this class of rocket a reusable orbital stage is a massive expense to develop, a huge expense to build, and a massive hit to capacity. They're all doing the same math and have all come to the same conclusion, which is that for this class of rocket a single use orbital stage is the obvious technical solution.

Saying BO going to fail at full NG reusability is like saying SX is going to fail at making F9 a 30T rocket or that Tesla is going to fail at making a 1000 mile model 3.

The fuel margins will not justify it. They have yet to prove that the fuel margins on NG's booster will justify its recovery.... F9 shows that same relentless desire to squeeze out every bit of energy from all parts of their rocket. Maybe that is happening over at BO on the down low, but I'm skeptical.

That's not how rocketry works. There's no fundamental uncertainty here. BE4 has been making fire for years now. Even without deeper than public domain knowledge on exactly what they've been up to it should be pretty evident that they've put a LOT of time on the engine--hell, they have flight motors bolted to a rocket! Blue knows exactly how efficient the motor is, they know exactly what their tankage is, they know exactly what their masses are. They can do rocket math. Their simulations (that everyone does before a rocket is launched, including SX) are telling them exactly what the performance is going to be.

Its worth reiterating that Blue--whether people like it or not, or agree with it or not--are solving the problem from a traditional perspective, which is to engineer the *sugar* out of the thing and THEN go build it. For sure they're purposely leaving some margin on the table from the off and they're going to get to turn efficiency knobs as flight heritage warrants, but If we want to make an analogy to SX's efficiency gains over the product lifecycle, the first NG is probably equivalent in efficiency to to the first F9 B5 launch and so its efficiency opportunities are probably equivalent to the incremental gain's SX has realized over the B5 lifecycle.
 

Grendal

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Full reusability was never part of NG--its pretty bizarre it actually keeps coming up here TBH. BO, like everyone else including SX, realized that for this class of rocket a reusable orbital stage is a massive expense to develop, a huge expense to build, and a massive hit to capacity. They're all doing the same math and have all come to the same conclusion, which is that for this class of rocket a single use orbital stage is the obvious technical solution.

Saying BO going to fail at full NG reusability is like saying SX is going to fail at making F9 a 30T rocket or that Tesla is going to fail at making a 1000 mile model 3.



That's not how rocketry works. There's no fundamental uncertainty here. BE4 has been making fire for years now. Even without deeper than public domain knowledge on exactly what they've been up to it should be pretty evident that they've put a LOT of time on the engine--hell, they have flight motors bolted to a rocket! Blue knows exactly how efficient the motor is, they know exactly what their tankage is, they know exactly what their masses are. They can do rocket math. Their simulations (that everyone does before a rocket is launched, including SX) are telling them exactly what the performance is going to be.

Its worth reiterating that Blue--whether people like it or not, or agree with it or not--are solving the problem from a traditional perspective, which is to engineer the *sugar* out of the thing and THEN go build it. For sure they're purposely leaving some margin on the table from the off and they're going to get to turn efficiency knobs as flight heritage warrants, but If we want to make an analogy to SX's efficiency gains over the product lifecycle, the first NG is probably equivalent in efficiency to to the first F9 B5 launch and so its efficiency opportunities are probably equivalent to the incremental gain's SX has realized over the B5 lifecycle.
I'm pretty sure BE-4 is a very good engine. What I'm not sure about is the weight of the NG rocket and how they intend to maneuver it for recovery. Will it need to perform an entry burn? Are they building the fuselage extra strong to endure reentry? What will be their strategy for recovery? If and when they succeed at a recovery, what will be the turnaround time and how much is needed for refurbishment? There is a lot of uncertainty and skepticism from me until we get some launches from either ULA or BO.

I've heard others, besides here, speculate that BO is going for second stage recovery. The rumor, from what I can glean, stems from the NG delays. It's probably just wild speculation.
 

bxr140

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What I'm not sure about is the weight of the NG rocket and how they intend to maneuver it for recovery. Will it need to perform an entry burn? Are they building the fuselage extra strong to endure reentry? What will be their strategy for recovery? If and when they succeed at a recovery, what will be the turnaround time and how much is needed for refurbishment? There is a lot of uncertainty and skepticism from me until we get some launches from either ULA or BO.

I think "just asking questions" without any real supporting evidence/logic toes a pretty dangerous slope. Bottom line, there's nothing to suggest Blue has any kind of fundamental flaw that will prevent recovery. That they do not share internal progress with the public is not evidence.



I've heard others, besides here, speculate that BO is going for second stage recovery. The rumor, from what I can glean, stems from the NG delays. It's probably just wild speculation.

Like every other rocket in this class (I'm referencing the big 5m's), second stage recovery has never been part of NG architecture. Of course (as noted above) like everyone else they've thought about it, because it would be foolish for a company like that to not consider the concept. There's a huge chasm between "they decided it was never going to work" and "they failed at making it happen".

To wit, I'd challenge anyone who says "SX failed at making F9 fully reusable".
 
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