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SpaceX vs. Everyone - ULA, NG, Boeing, Lockheed, etc.

for traditional space programs, 75% or so of the total satellite segment cost is the bill of materials for the sats, or near as makes no difference for this convo, ~half of a program's total cost.

nobody else has the internal funding or the gumption to take that leap of faith and dump a truckload of investment into an idea like "send up a bunch of automotive grade and digikey parts and hope real hard that they last long enough", because everyone else has traditional beancounters controlling the money (and those kinds of folks aren't the kind of person that will just do whatever their CEO wants to do).

Thanks for the welcome.

FYI somebody does have the gumption and they are building satellite busses for classes of satellites that don't currently exist, some quite large. They are attacking the %75 BOM cost to reduce that. EG: Much lower cost per pound to orbit means that you don't need to increase the cost of certain components by 10X just to save a few pounds.

The competitive advantage of Starship is not just the presumed launch costs, but size and weight capability at a reasonable cost. This opens up segments of things that would not have been practical before.

Like the recent Tesla investor day where Wall Street wonders "where's evidence of demand for a car that costs %50 less to build" the new capabilities of Starship really are a "build it and they will come"-- because it is an order of magnitude better than the existing situation in a couple areas.

The current satellite market is based on the current launch capabilities. When starship changes that, the market will change as new niches are opened up.

By definition this is a statement of faith, but the past 70 years has shown this happening over and over and over again. Transistors, ICs, minicomputers, fax machines, microcomputers, email, the internet, the web, broadband, smart phones-- all created multiple new industries that previously were not viable.

Anyway, I actually think that Starlink alone will pay off the entire Starship program. Eventually. But the demand for launches will grow much more than the demand was grown by falcon 9. In fact, I think the effect of falcon 9 in expanding the market is only just now being experienced.

It takes awhile ,and Falcon 9 only recently hit the 50 launches a year.
 
The competitive advantage of Starship is not just the presumed launch costs, but size and weight capability at a reasonable cost. This opens up segments of things that would not have been practical before.

Like the recent Tesla investor day where Wall Street wonders "where's evidence of demand for a car that costs %50 less to build" the new capabilities of Starship really are a "build it and they will come"-- because it is an order of magnitude better than the existing situation in a couple areas.
Just want to say that, on re-reading my statements above, they are a lot more declarative and possibly argumentative sounding than I intended. I don't want to come off as a fanboy, but at the same time Twitter has trained me to treat everything as a debate, even though I'm just disagreeing above, not really actually debating. So, apologies in advance if it came off as harsh.
 

bxr140

Active Member
Nov 18, 2014
3,381
5,816
Bay Area
Just want to say that, on re-reading my statements above, they are a lot more declarative and possibly argumentative sounding than I intended. I don't want to come off as a fanboy, but at the same time Twitter has trained me to treat everything as a debate, even though I'm just disagreeing above, not really actually debating. So, apologies in advance if it came off as harsh.

Lol, all good, did not at all take your response in the negative. Constructive conversations are always welcome.


FWIW, I think one thing that often gets wires crossed in this forum is the timeline of progress; perhaps you'll find that's the case too. So...I agree wholeheartedly with the theory/philosophy of what you're trying to say relative to decreasing cost-to-orbit. But...the reality of today and for many years to come is that those theories are going to stay theories. For instance:

FYI somebody does have the gumption and they are building satellite busses for classes of satellites that don't currently exist, some quite large. They are attacking the %75 BOM cost to reduce that. EG: Much lower cost per pound to orbit means that you don't need to increase the cost of certain components by 10X just to save a few pounds.

Certainly we haven't drawn a box around things like "gumption" and "attacking" so its quite possible we're misaligned there, but unfortunately, my read of the industry doesn't really turn up anyone making strong progress toward a Starlink like BOM for any satellites of consequence. Don't get me wrong--there are a number of entities out there taking sensible, first principals bites out of the cost of an otherwise 'traditional' BOM...but because the first order cost problem is not the cost of mass, there's not a ton of fruit on the tree of "throw mass at the cost problem". The issue is that the first order cost problem is the combination of lifetime, reliability, and performance required by any particular satellite mission.

This is why cubesat companies like Planet and Spire and Tyvak and BCT can build/offer relatively inexpensive satellites...and also why the industry is realizing cubesats aren't actually that awesome when you get to the bottom line of cost. They don't have to last long because can't last long (~2 year missions or so--lots of drag), they don't have to work because the expectations are low and often they're launched in clusters, and their performance-per-dollar is really not that favorable (and their total performance obviously is way limited) so they're only really useful for a particular type of mission.

As soon as you jump up to the microsat/espa-ish class of sats (Tyvak, Millennium, BCT, Leostella, Surrey...among others) the bottom line price goes way up...but so does reliability, mission life, and available performance.

Where the Starship mass capability really comes into play relative to enabling lower satellite BOM costs is with megaconstelations like Starlink. The important nuance there its that the big enabler is the massive quantity of sats (and ~constant replenishment of said sats) that simply allows the lifetime and reliability requirements to be thrown out the window. To wit, from a traditional perspective, Starlink sats are crap. They have super short lifetimes and terrible reliability. SX would agree, mind, because their math works out that by hucking up a zillion satellites, the statistical crappiness of any one satellite is well mitigated and then some.

Importantly, if not horse beating, that logic only closes with mass quantities of sats. It simply doesn't work for smaller constellations. Someone with tens or hundreds of satellites can't afford to have a high percentage of them crap out, so they have to pay to make sure they [within statistical reason] don't crap out. AST, for instance, wants to do a couple hundred sats--I think 200 or so. Tyvak's recent Rivada contract is for a 288 sat constellation (and 12 spares). Both of those satellite designs will of course try to leverage down-market components in order to nibble away at the BOM cost, but because their missions will demand near traditional reliability in order to maintain full constellation coverage (let alone service) they're not going to stray to far from traditional qualification philosophies.
 

Grendal

SpaceX Moderator
Moderator
Jan 31, 2012
7,010
10,017
Santa Fe, New Mexico
We can leave these new GPS satellites on the ground. As the first commenter posted:
"There's not a launch backlog. There's a Vulcan backlog. Awarding GPS III-7 to Vulcan a year before it's actually going to fly is what created this problem."
 
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bxr140

Active Member
Nov 18, 2014
3,381
5,816
Bay Area
We can leave these new GPS satellites on the ground. As the first commenter posted:
"There's not a launch backlog. There's a Vulcan backlog. Awarding GPS III-7 to Vulcan a year before it's actually going to fly is what created this problem."

Ugg. Continued evidence that zealots won't let logic get in the way of pushing an agenda...

For those wondering what's going on here:

GPS needs 24 sats to really function properly
GPS has 31 operational sats on orbit
GPS has four completed hangar queens at Lockheed in Colorado
GPS has launched 6 sats in the past 4+ years (5 on F9, as an aside)
The next planned GPS launch is in mid 2024
The next planned GPS launch after that is in 2025
The next planned GPS launch after that is in 2026
Its almost certain the last of the 4 hanger queens won't light until 2027 and maybe even later
That 4th sat was delivered just last month to a contract inked in 2008--15 YEARS ago
GPS has 10 more sats already in production on a new contract (inked in 2018), representing around $2.5B
Those 10 sats won't start getting launched until 2027 at the earliest

After all that, we can finally get to the two subject "paused" satellites (out of a total of up to 12 more sats), which represent ~$500M of the 2024 budget. Two satellites which almost certainly won't get launched until the next decade and on a contract that will easily take GPS through 2035 and maybe even through 2040.

It is diabolical that anyone twist any of that into being about of Vulcan. Any rational human would look at the facts and say "no *sugar* Sherlock, you don't need to spend $500M worth of taxpayer money right now on more GPS sats that you don't need until 2030+".

Seriously, if there's anything crazy going on here its the fact that it is the friggin US military saying "maybe we don't need to spend taxpayer money"...
(Fear not on that snarky editorial--as noted in the SN article the $$$ is being reallocated to missile warning...)
 

Grendal

SpaceX Moderator
Moderator
Jan 31, 2012
7,010
10,017
Santa Fe, New Mexico
Very informative. That said, back in the day ULA and their proponents didn't hesitate to badmouth SpaceX for any minor discretion, delay, or distraction. So nudging them a bit on just a forum is fair. The article did point out that there wasn't any critical reason to get the GPS sats up. I'm still rooting for ULA to get Vulcan launching. My niece works at ULA on Vulcan. :)
 

mongo

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2017
17,007
64,608
Michigan
Ugg. Continued evidence that zealots won't let logic get in the way of pushing an agenda...

For those wondering what's going on here:

GPS needs 24 sats to really function properly
GPS has 31 operational sats on orbit
GPS has four completed hangar queens at Lockheed in Colorado
GPS has launched 6 sats in the past 4+ years (5 on F9, as an aside)
The next planned GPS launch is in mid 2024
The next planned GPS launch after that is in 2025
The next planned GPS launch after that is in 2026
Its almost certain the last of the 4 hanger queens won't light until 2027 and maybe even later
That 4th sat was delivered just last month to a contract inked in 2008--15 YEARS ago
GPS has 10 more sats already in production on a new contract (inked in 2018), representing around $2.5B
Those 10 sats won't start getting launched until 2027 at the earliest

After all that, we can finally get to the two subject "paused" satellites (out of a total of up to 12 more sats), which represent ~$500M of the 2024 budget. Two satellites which almost certainly won't get launched until the next decade and on a contract that will easily take GPS through 2035 and maybe even through 2040.

It is diabolical that anyone twist any of that into being about of Vulcan. Any rational human would look at the facts and say "no *sugar* Sherlock, you don't need to spend $500M worth of taxpayer money right now on more GPS sats that you don't need until 2030+".

Seriously, if there's anything crazy going on here its the fact that it is the friggin US military saying "maybe we don't need to spend taxpayer money"...
(Fear not on that snarky editorial--as noted in the SN article the $$$ is being reallocated to missile warning...)
14 of the current constellation are at least 5 years beyond their inital 7.5 year service life. 7 are at least 10 years beyond.
I'm sure they are keeping good track of their health and propellant levels. Barring a cosmic event, at some point they will age out and need replaced at something approximating the original launch cadence which was only slightly higher than one a year.
 
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scaesare

Well-Known Member
Mar 14, 2013
9,317
19,072
NoVA
14 of the current constellation are at least 5 years beyond their inital 7.5 year service life. 7 are at least 10 years beyond.
I'm sure they are keeping good track of their health and propellant levels. Barring a cosmic event, at some point they will age out and need replaced at something approximating the original launch cadence which was only slightly higher than one a year.

What's more I'm not sure that the total number of currently operational + pending launches is as much of an issue as the launch cadence. Sure there can be sats in the pipeline, but the number of sats entering the pipeline and those being decomm'ed need to balance out (all things being equal).

Given that LM just delivered the 10th sat on that 2008 contract, it appears there may be some significant lead time to get them built, perhaps as a result of some problems that are hopefully past. So, given the pipeline for new sat builds seems to be in the order of years, it doesn't seem unreasonable that launch delays/backlog now, could impact plans for 3-4 years out.

If they've had to delay replacement currently, due to issues (Vulcan or otherwise), and have been able to fill that gap by extending service life, as @mongo mentions, then it seems fair to say those current launch delays caused a ripple effect that were a factor in the decision to avoid excess inventory...
 

bxr140

Active Member
Nov 18, 2014
3,381
5,816
Bay Area
That said, back in the day ULA and their proponents didn't hesitate to badmouth SpaceX for any minor discretion, delay, or distraction. So nudging them a bit on just a forum is fair.

Stepping past the justifying bad behavior with bad behavior piece, I guess what annoys me most is that the comments section of SN has become as useless a place as most other comments sections on the internets. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. But I can still be disappointed.

14 of the current constellation are at least 5 years beyond their inital 7.5 year service life. 7 are at least 10 years beyond.
I'm sure they are keeping good track of their health and propellant levels. Barring a cosmic event, at some point they will age out and need replaced at something approximating the original launch cadence which was only slightly higher than one a year.

Exactly. So what SpaceForce! is doing is rudimentary fleet management.

This whole thing is like saying "I have an out of warranty car that's in good health and so I'm going to wait a bit to buy a new car", and then having some zealot with a chip against a trucking company yell that into "THAT PERSON ISN'T BUYING A CAR THEY DON'T NEED BECAUSE THE FLATBED ISN'T BUILT YET!!11!!1!!"

Let's apply the most sensible to logic here: This is GP ****ing S. It is possibly the single most critical element of the most powerful nation in the world's defense network. It is one of the most monitored systems in existence. If there was any sniff of it showing potential future system degradation there would be mitigation.
 
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Electroman

Well-Known Member
Aug 18, 2012
7,668
11,686
TX
Stepping past the justifying bad behavior with bad behavior piece, I guess what annoys me most is that the comments section of SN has become as useless a place as most other comments sections on the internets. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. But I can still be disappointed.



Exactly. So what SpaceForce! is doing is rudimentary fleet management.

This whole thing is like saying "I have an out of warranty car that's in good health and so I'm going to wait a bit to buy a new car", and then having some zealot with a chip against a trucking company yell that into "THAT PERSON ISN'T BUYING A CAR THEY DON'T NEED BECAUSE THE FLATBED ISN'T BUILT YET!!11!!1!!"

Let's apply the most sensible to logic here: This is GP ****ing S. It is possibly the single most critical element of the most powerful nation in the world's defense network. It is one of the most monitored systems in existence. If there was any sniff of it showing potential future system degradation there would be mitigation.
Agree with the last paragraph
 

ecarfan

Well-Known Member
Moderator
Richard Branson’s rocket-launch firm Virgin Orbit pauses operations, furloughs staff

Not a surprise…

The Long Beach-based company announced the operational pause Wednesday and it goes into effect Thursday. As part of the move, the firm has furloughed most of its nearly 700 employees. Those employees will continue to have benefits during this time, according to a source familiar with the matter.

The company expects the pause to continue through next Tuesday, according to a document filed with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission. The operational pause will allow Virgin Orbit to save money while company officials meet with “potential funding sources” and explore “strategic opportunities,” according to the document.
 

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