Speculation - New charging plug?

[sandpiper]

Yup, I don't disagree with that line of thinking. I'm just betting that an standardized adoption will be slow.

It's certainly possible. It's a question of how quickly Tesla is willing to concede to the inevitable. They're really the only holdout. If they concede soon, standardization will happen a lot faster. I'm going to be the optimist and say that I expect Tesla to jump soon.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

For those who don't know what the various plugs look like:

I know which one I'd choose!

 

[sandpiper]

The one almost certain to win is the SAE J1772 Combo - also known as the "frankenplug". And it's now good up to 150kw - a bit better than the current generation of superchargers. It's admittedly awful compared to the Tesla plug. But I have confidence that Tesla would find a way to incorporate it nicely into the bodywork.

 

[rypalmer]

SAE J1772 Combo supports up to 100kW

This is true today for version 2 of the SAE DC charging spec. There's no way Tesla is going to go backwards on charging capability so lets not even bother going there.

However, SAE DC version 3 is not finalized, but should be in the 200-600V, 400A range, up to 240kW, double existing Tesla plug capabilities. THIS would be the SAE Combo plug to go with. It's just a matter of time now.

 

[sandpiper]

This is true today for version 2 of the SAE DC charging spec. There's no way Tesla is going to go backwards on charging capability so lets not even bother going there.

However, SAE DC version 3 is not finalized, but should be in the 200-600V, 400A range, up to 240kW, double existing Tesla plug capabilities. THIS would be the SAE Combo plug to go with. It's just a matter of time now.

240kw would be nice. That's a dead 100D fully charged 20-25 minutes - assuming the battery could handle it.

 

[jsmay311]

One possible wrinkle in this would be if future (non-Tesla) DCFC public charging stations were installed with both SAE CCS AND Tesla connectors.

If Tesla sells anywhere near as many Model 3's as they're projecting, most of the EVs on the road in the medium-term are going to be Teslas, so anyone installing public chargers and hoping to maximize usage/revenue would probably be wise to include both plug types. IF that happens, it'd be easier to see both standards co-existing for quite a while.

And I'd be surprised if Tesla/Elon were willing to bite the bullet and endure the pain of a change so early when the impetus really isn't there yet.

For those who don't know what the various plugs look like:
[...]
I know which one I'd choose!

A few months back I was reading some threads that had pretty solid evidence showing Superchargers reducing their charge rate due to overheating at the plug. I questioned whether or not Teslas smaller plug might actually be problematic for overheating and got down-voted like crazy. But it's still an open question in my mind.

 

[sandpiper]

That would require ABB / GE to modify their design to accommodate the Tesla plug. Certainly it's technically possible. But I'm betting that ABB & GE see theirs as the winning hand and won't bother. They'll let the Tesla drivers live with adapters until, eventually, Tesla caves.

 

[jaguar36]

240kw would be nice. That's a dead 100D fully charged 20-25 minutes - assuming the battery could handle it.

I don't like to put to much stock into future speculation based on Elon's tweets, but its far far more likely that we will see the next gen Superchargers with 350kw+ capability before we see a significant number of SAE DC V3 240kW plugs.

There is zero chance Tesla will move to the SAE plug, its a monstrosity and the vast majority of Tesla charging is going to be happening either at home, or at superchargers for the forseeable future.

 

[sandpiper]

I don't like to put to much stock into future speculation based on Elon's tweets, but its far far more likely that we will see the next gen Superchargers with 350kw+ capability before we see a significant number of SAE DC V3 240kW plugs.

There is zero chance Tesla will move to the SAE plug, its a monstrosity and the vast majority of Tesla charging is going to be happening either at home, or at superchargers for the forseeable future.

ZERO chance? Sorry.. I disagree. I think it's inevitable. We have one SAE standard for gasoline & diesel nozzles. This situation is no different; it's just early days. In Europe Tesla has complied with the EU standard for EV charging. And when it's more settled, they will here as well.

 

[Model 3]

In Europe Tesla has complied with the EU standard for EV charging. And when it's more settled, they will here as well.

Just to add a few data points to the discussion here...

I do not know (almost) anything about the plugs and connectors in NA, but here in Europa things are a bit different as @sandpiper says. At the time they designed the Model S there was (as far as I know) any accepted standards for charging, so they just had to make their own solution. But when the time had come to modify it for the European marked, Meneske Type2 was the accepted standard for AC charging (see picture in @MorrisonHiker post above), so they designed Model S for Europa with a Type2 connector instead of the "Tesla plug" you have. But the CCS was not yet decided on, so for Supercharging they went with an alternative runner-up called DC-Mid and modified it a bit. This uses the same Type2 plug as AC charging, without the bottom pins of the CCS/Frankenplug.

So here I think it should be possible to design a charging port on the Model 3 (and later for S+X+Y and all others) that is capable to use both Type2 AC, Tesla EU-SuperCharger and CCS.

This also shows that Tesla does design for the accepted standards when there is any, so I do think @sandpiper is correct in that Tesla now will design their cars from now on with the "FrankenPlug" in mind. The question is if they will - for the NA marked - put in two charging ports on the car, or do the change on the superchargers and give existing owners an adapter.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@Model 3

Agreed. In Europe a CCS plug in Model 3 with the top part both Type 2 and Tesla SpC/CHAdeMO adapter compatible would be great. Really the best of all worlds...

Noy saying I love CCS... it is ugly... but that is where the world is going to here.

 

[kaffine]

I think it's inevitable. We have one SAE standard for gasoline & diesel nozzles

There are 2 current standards in use for Diesel nozzles in the US anyways. There is a larger nozzle with high flow rates and then a small nozzle. Some cars were able to use the larger nozzle however recently it seems most are only able to use the smaller nozzle.


I could see chargers having multiple plugs for some time. I think they will need to see how much power they can force into the batteries before a standard is settled. The only way for them to finalize on a standard before would be if they have way more capacity than likely needed like a 400+kw plug.

 

[mknox]

This is not beta/vhs because Tesla is making there money upfront selling the cars, SC's are not a profit center for them.

For now, but since recently they are starting to charge for Supercharger use. I believe what Tesla is currently doing is building out the "fueling station" of the future and at some point they are going to want to monetize it.

It wouldn't be a big deal to retrofit the existing SCs with the SAE frankenplug. And then they could offer an adapter for the legacy Tesla owners that goes from SAE to legacy Tesla.

And thereby monetize their Supercharger network allowing all makes and models in. We don't have gas stations for Chevy's and different stations that only Fords can use. Why should EV charging be any different?

In Europe Tesla has complied with the EU standard for EV charging.

Same will likely happen here. It seems inevitable.

 

[iwannam3]

How will Volkswagen Dieselgate settlement change the charger landscape? Don't they have to spend like a $billion on charging infrastructure?

 

[SmartElectric]

SAE/Chademo combo units are already outnumbering superchargers in Ontario Canada.

OK. But you know VERY WELL that the Tesla superchargers are far easier to use, and are far more reliable, not to mention charge speed, cost and location are better for Tesla in every way. Let's keep it real... I've used Tesla and non Tesla charging in Ontario and cannot at all agree with your intended claim that Tesla should switch because the other chargers are growing in number...that statement completely fails when any other factors are considered!!

 

[kzod]

Betamax lost because there was no porn available! Sexy is built into every Tesla from day one. Supercharging is sexy as hell, and the biggest advantage that Tesla has over all other EV's.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

OK. But you know VERY WELL that the Tesla superchargers are far easier to use, and are far more reliable, not to mention charge speed, cost and location are better for Tesla in every way. Let's keep it real... I've used Tesla and non Tesla charging in Ontario and cannot at all agree with your intended claim that Tesla should switch because the other chargers are growing in number...that statement completely fails when any other factors are considered!!

Your suggestion implies somehow Tesla's connector is to thank for the superior operation.

I doubt that is true. A CCS Tesla SpC would likely work just as well.

 

[Snerruc]

Living where there are no Superchargers, and Tesla has said will not get them, my only choice is CHAdeMO. The stations have CCS also for the few cars that support it. I find that above 60% charge they are as fast as Superchargers, and as fast as some people are getting at some Superchargers period according to numerous threads. At 70% charge they are at 135 mph and often climbing. Not to say that a Supercharger wouldn't be nice to have, but CHAdeMO works pretty well if that's what you have available. There have been pictures posted on TMC of a new style ChargePoint station with 3 connectors one being Tesla.

 

[S'toon]

That's not so. The SAE/Chademo combo units are already outnumbering superchargers in Ontario Canada, and they're often located in places where there are no reachable superchargers.

With other EV makers pushing bigger batteries, we can expect to see more and more of this.

On the other hand, there's neither SAE/Chademo OR Tesla Superchargers in Saskatchewan, Canada, and no plans to put in any of either at any time in the future.

 

[sandpiper]

On the other hand, there's neither SAE/Chademo OR Tesla Superchargers in Saskatchewan, Canada, and no plans to put in any of either at any time in the future.

Yeah... I'm sorry about that. I don't quite understand it.