Speculation - New charging plug?

[AnxietyRanger]

I think it's more likely that they would just have a separate CCS adapter that would accept a CCS plug and would wire that to the existing power pins on the North American Tesla socket.

If it could be done a a dumb charger, sure. I guess the merits of @Craig-Tx 's idea relate to the simplicity of the needed adapter, if the base connector is basically a differently shaped CCS.

So, something less than is needed for CHAdeMO...

This could also make sense if Tesla feels future Supercharger upgrades could use beefier additional pins as well. So a sort of Tesla connector 1.5 or Tesla connector 2.0 that can accept a dumb CCS adapter but also be compatible with the old Tesla connector...

 

[Craig-Tx]

Nevertheless it is not just you that dreamed it out.

Tesla in Europe uses a plug that is shaped as 'DC-Mid' plug. Middle pin (PE) has one additional groove that prevents european superchargers to be plugged into some other non-tesla EV with this same plug. Tesla's version is electrically already 'stronger' as standard dictates.

[Image removed from Quote]

Tesla only needs to add those two big PLUS and MINUS pins below and it can use CCS.
This move will enable europeans to charge on SCs and also with CSS, no adapters needed.

Thanks for the info. I wondered how they prevented other Menneke equipped vehicles from plugging into a SC causing potentially damaging results (although unlikely as I am sure power isn't applied until communication protocols dictate.)

 

[Jeff N]

If it could be done a a dumb charger, sure. I guess the merits of @Craig-Tx 's idea relate to the simplicity of the needed adapter, if the base connector is basically a differently shaped CCS.

As folks have already noted, the NA Tesla connector is just a differently shaped connector with the same number of pins for J1772 AC charging purposes. This is also potentially true for CCS purposes. Tesla just reused the same power pins for DC as they use for AC. Or, stated another way, the pins are oversized for AC use so they can also be used for DC. Tesla just uses a contactor inside the car to switch those pins either to the AC-to-DC battery charger for AC charging or directly to the battery pack for DC charging whereas CCS uses separate dedicated pins for AC and DC in practice (the J1772 spec theoretically also allows low-power DC charging on the "AC" pins but nobody bothers to implement it).

All the control and signaling pins are otherwise the same between J1772/CCS and Tesla except that the pilot pin carries a different modulation and messaging framework between the external "charger" and the car when CCS DC charging vs Tesla DC charging. This "CCS" messaging protocol can optionally be implemented and used for J1772 AC charging as well but hasn't been needed so far and therefore today's cars use backwards compatible analog signaling.

In the future, J1772 and CCS are supporting a Tesla-style authentication capability where you just plug in your car and it self-authenticates to the charging station and charges without the driver having to use an RFID or credit card. I'm not certain, but this might be supported by some future J1772 AC chargers in addition to being supported by CCS chargers. In order for this to work, Tesla will have to support this CCS-style messaging on the pilot pin even via their J1772 AC adapter. The car will have to be able to determine whether to speak analog J1772, Tesla Supercharger, or J1772/CCS digital protocols over that pilot pin. I'm guessing they will find a way to make that work.

If Tesla can implement this pilot pin protocol support on the car then today's existing J1772 adapter can continue to work as a pass-thru adapter that just adapts the different physical connector shape. Likewise, a separate simple CCS passthru adapter would internally just connect the CCS high-power DC pins to the Tesla AC/DC shared high-power pins and the car would internally flip the right contactors when the car determines which kind of charging is being done based on the protocol handshaking and messaging on the pilot pin much Tesla does when using their native plug.

Aside from determining the right protocol to speak on the pilot pin, the only hard part here is adapting the locking mechanism which mechanically clamps the charging plug into the car during high-power charging. For both Tesla and J1772/CCS, the lock is mechanically actuated by the car (unlike CHAdeMO, I think). I'm not a mechanical engineer, but it seems plausible to me that a passive CCS adapter could internally contain a simple mechanical adapter that converts the Tesla car's locking pin motion into the motion needed by the clamp that CCS uses to lock the plug to the car.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

As folks have already noted, the NA Tesla connector is just a differently shaped connector for J1772 AC charging purposes. This is also potentially true for CCS purposes. Tesla just reused the same power pins for DC as they use for AC. Or, stated another way, the pins are oversized for AC use so they can also be used for DC. Tesla just uses a contactor inside the car to switch those pins either to the AC-to-DC battery charger for AC charging or directly to the battery pack for DC charging whereas CCS uses separate dedicated pins for AC and DC in practice (the J1772 spec theoretically allows low-power DC charging on the "AC" pins but nobody implements it).

All the control and signaling pins are otherwise the same between J1772/CCS and Tesla except that the pilot pin carries a different modulation and messaging framework when CCS DC charging vs Tesla DC charging. This "CCS" messaging protocol can optionally be implemented and used for J1772 AC charging as well but hasn't been needed so far and therefore today's cars use backwards compatible analog signaling.

In the future, J1772 and CCS are supporting a Tesla-style authentication capability where you just plug in your car and it self-authenticates to the charging station and charges without the driver having to use an RFID or credit card. I'm not certain, but this might be supported by some future J1772 AC chargers in addition to being supported by CCS chargers. In order for this to work, Tesla will have to support this CCS-style messaging on the pilot pin even via their J1772 adapter. The car will have to be able to determine whether to speak analog J1772, Tesla Supercharger, or J1772/CCS digital protocols over that pilot pin. I'm guessing they will find a way to make that work.

If Tesla can implement this pilot pin protocol support on the car then today's existing J1772 adapter can continue to work as a pass-thru adapter that just adapts the different physical connector shape. Likewise, a separate simple CCS passthru adapter would internally just connect the CCS high-power DC pins to the Tesla AC/DC shared high-power pins and the car would internally flip the right contactors when the car determines which kind of charging is being done based on the protocol handshaking and messaging on the pilot pin much Tesla does when using their native plug.

Aside from determining the right protocol to speak on the pilot pin, the only hard part here is adapting the locking mechanism which mechanically clamps the charging plug into the car during high-power charging. For both Tesla and J1772/CCS, the lock is mechanically actuated by the car (unlike CHAdeMO, I think). I'm not a mechanical engineer, but it seems plausible to me that a passive CCS adapter could internally contain a simple mechanical adapter that converts the Tesla car's locking pin motion into the motion needed by the clamp that CCS uses to lock the plug to the car.

I do get your point.

My point being, same as with the EU DC-Mid connector (which is a similar story of a standard variation, but only much, much less changed from the standard than the U.S. connector), if the current Tesla connector isn't sufficient for the full CCS power, additional pins might be introduced (i.e. making a Tesla connector 1.5 or 2.0...) similar to how Level 2/Type 2 had the DC pins added to create CCS...

Your approach is possible too.

Or neither.

 

[Jeff N]

My point being, same as with the EU DC-Mid connector (which is a similar story of a standard variation, but only much, much less changed from the standard than the U.S. connector), if the current Tesla connector isn't sufficient for the full CCS power, additional pins might be introduced (i.e. making a Tesla connector 1.5 or 2.0...) similar to how Level 2/Type 2 had the DC pins added to create CCS...

I'm not sure why the existing NA Tesla connector wouldn't be sufficient for full CCS power. Tesla already uses it for ~370A charging without liquid cooling of the pins. CCS supports up to 350A with pin cooling and might vote to extend that to 400A. Any active CCS pin cooling on the CCS plug would help cool the potential Tesla CCS adapter wiring and car-side power pins as well through the heat conduction of the copper wires and pins a short distance away but, as I said, Tesla has already been using their car-side power pins for these amperages without active cooling already where the CCS power pins are a little bit less capable and can only do about 250A without active cooling.

 

[ccutrer]

I'm not sure why the existing NA Tesla connector wouldn't be sufficient for full CCS power. Tesla already uses it for ~370A charging without liquid cooling of the pins. CCS supports up to 350A with pin cooling and might vote to extend that to 400A. Any active CCS pin cooling on the CCS plug would help cool the potential Tesla CCS adapter wiring and car-side power pins as well through the heat conduction of the copper wires and pins a short distance away but, as I said, Tesla has already been using their car-side power pins for these amperages without active cooling already where the CCS power pins are a little bit less capable and can only do about 250A without active cooling.

There's lots of discussion on this topic in other CCS and Supercharger threads, and the tl;dr is that we're not actually sure what the specs are, and what they're capable of, and for how long. Anecdotal evidence is that the Tesla can sustain 370A, but possibly only for a short period which coincides nicely with the charge taper on current vehicles. But maybe the handles start to wear out after frequent use near their limits. There's also voltage. To get to higher charge rates the consensus is that we're probably not going to significantly pass 400A, so we need to raise the voltage. And possibly the Tesla connectors pins are too close together and/or not well enough insulated to prevent arcing at 800-1000V. So, ignoring communication protocols, the current Tesla connectors are fine for building a dumb CCS adapter for current cars and chargers. But it seems likely that Tesla's margins are too slim to continue using the same connector for future cars that can take a higher charge rate for a longer sustained period of time. And while CCS' frankenplugs aren't strictly necessary to meet those needs (I think a slightly enlarged version of the current Tesla connector would be ideal ignoring Teslas's current and future public (CCS) ecosystems), it may be prudent of Tesla to convert to CCS in the long run. At least CCS has a theoretical solution for what I see as the largest experience advantage of Superchargers - plug and charge without messing with activation/billing. And the current line of discussion has some novel ideas for how to get Tesla to CCS with minimal compatibility problems.

Man, and I just realized something else CCS is missing that I would miss switching to it wholesale - push-button on the charge handle to open the charge port door. Maybe if Tesla really does switch to CCS wholesale, they could integrate that into their own CCS/Superchargers and CCS/wall connector handles, so that I still get that experience as long as I'm using Tesla equipment.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Very nicely out @ccutrer. Thanks! It is always so welcome when someone summarize the situation. Very helpful.

 

[ohowl]

I'll be thoroughly confused if Tesla doesn't just add the two extra pins to its cars in Europe, and support CCS.

Fully backwards compatible with current superchargers, compatibility with thousands of already-deployed and to-be-deployed CCS chargers and continued full compatibility with the standardized AC stations being rolled out everywhere from homes to shopping centres.

A complete no-brainer. Apart from the fugly look of the frankenplug.

 

[arnis]

Tesla in Europe uses a plug that is shaped as 'DC-Mid' plug. Middle pin (PE) has one additional groove that prevents european superchargers to be plugged into some other non-tesla EV with this same plug. Tesla's version is electrically already 'stronger' as standard dictates.

AFAIK, no. Tesla's "rest-of-the-world SC plug is identical to Type2 and it can be plugged in to all Type2 vehicles.
Electrically, plug is "stronger". Better conductors AFAIK.

 

[David99]

Anyone can buy a CHADeMO or SAE combo charger unit and set up their own charging station. There are several different vendors for these chargers. If you wanted, you could even do it for your home.
Tesla doesn't sell Superchargers as a normal product. They don't allow you to make up your own pricing or set up your own network using the Tesla plug/system. There is zero chance any other car manufacturer will use the Tesla plug.

I doubt we will see one system. Both the SAE combo plug and Tesla will have their separate stations. And honestly, it's fine. Why does it have to be just one standard? There are several different electrical outlet standards. All have their purpose and justification.

 

[Skotty]

For those of you who have a tesla already, what do you use for your home charger? just a NEMA 14-50 outlet, or buy the Tesla Wall Connector? If the latter, what amp setting did you set it up to use it for?

I have a J1772 EVSE, 240v 32 amp. I bought an extra J1772 adapter and I leave it almost always attached to the J1772 EVSE cord. Not as convenient as a Tesla wall thingy, but more convenient than using the mobile charge cord, and I can use it with other EVs as needed. The S charges at 30 amps. Charges up 22 miles per hour of range, which I find to be sufficient.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I'll be thoroughly confused if Tesla doesn't just add the two extra pins to its cars in Europe, and support CCS.

Fully backwards compatible with current superchargers, compatibility with thousands of already-deployed and to-be-deployed CCS chargers and continued full compatibility with the standardized AC stations being rolled out everywhere from homes to shopping centres.

A complete no-brainer. Apart from the fugly look of the frankenplug.

I think Model 3 getting a larger charge port door already points to this direction.

The only remaining question, IMO, is - is the new port ready for immediate EU launch or will Tesla start with the old port? And what will Tesla do in the U.S.?

And will there be a CHAdeMO-like adapter for CCS for the existing cars?

 

[Model 3]

Tesla doesn't sell Superchargers as a normal product. They don't allow you to make up your own pricing or set up your own network using the Tesla plug/system. There is zero chance any other car manufacturer will use the Tesla plug.

This is a trues with modifications:
Google Oversetter
This same "fastchargers" are installed a few places for fleets of Tesla taxis as far as I know.
But yes, this is in Europe with the European Type2 plug. But I'll be surprised if they don't also offer this in the NA marked with the "Tesla plug".

 

[David99]

This is a trues with modifications:
Google Oversetter
This same "fastchargers" are installed a few places for fleets of Tesla taxis as far as I know.
But yes, this is in Europe with the European Type2 plug. But I'll be surprised if they don't also offer this in the NA marked with the "Tesla plug".

I remember that one! There is also one in Las Vegas. It's at the same location as the first Las Vegas Supercharger but one level higher that has no public access. As far as I know, it's exclusive for a taxi company that has many Teslas. There might also be a few private Superchargers we don't know of.

 

[ccutrer]

I remember that one! There is also one in Las Vegas. It's at the same location as the first Las Vegas Supercharger but one level higher that has no public access. As far as I know, it's exclusive for a taxi company that has many Teslas. There might also be a few private Superchargers we don't know of.

There are several private Superchargers (beyond unlisted Superchargers inside some service centers). Iirc a taxi company in Montreal recently installed one. They're also not full power. 50kW maybe?

 

[jbcarioca]

If they can supply a passive SAE Combo adaptor, there's no issue.

Otherwise I agree they should adopt a standard and get it over with. The longer they delay this the harder it will be for them with more cars and EVSE in the field.

Adapters are prohibited at the moment by CharIN, the sponsor of CCS. That might change since Tesla is a full CharIN member. Anyway Tesla in Europe already has the base Mennekes plug used in CCS, although not the two extra pins. If CharIN eventually will allow an adapter it will be certainly charging rate limited as is the current Tesla CHAdeMO adapter.

By this time next year these problems will be eliminated, I suspect, partly because of Canadian expansion (although almost everything is CCS/CHAdeMO anyway) and partly because of the huge NA expansion from the VW settlement, among others, which will end out being principally L2 plus CCS.

 

[ccutrer]

Adapters are prohibited at the moment by CharIN, the sponsor of CCS. That might change since Tesla is a full CharIN member. Anyway Tesla in Europe already has the base Mennekes plug used in CCS, although not the two extra pins. If CharIN eventually will allow an adapter it will be certainly charging rate limited as is the current Tesla CHAdeMO adapter.

By this time next year these problems will be eliminated, I suspect, partly because of Canadian expansion (although almost everything is CCS/CHAdeMO anyway) and partly because of the huge NA expansion from the VW settlement, among others, which will end out being principally L2 plus CCS.

If the "adapter" is only on the J1772 part (which is just for communications at this point) but the high power DC pins are permanent, I can see it being easier for Tesla to convince CharIN to allow it.

Do you have a source for the VW build out being primarily CCS? I figured that at least for the first year or so they would do dual head with Chademo like so many new installs are these days.

 

[rypalmer]

I don't think Tesla needs to ask for anyone's permission to make a CCS adaptor.

 

[jbcarioca]

I don't think Tesla needs to ask for anyone's permission to make a CCS adaptor.

Association Infos: Charging Interface Initiative e. V. (CharIN e. V.)
Within the documents available on the site above are all the specific rules. CHarIn does at present prohibit connection made in any manner other than those specified in these rules. Tesla, or anyone else, would need rules changes to allow any form of adapter. Technically it is not a problem, especially since Tesla already has CharIn compliant communications protocols, which would be a larger task than a simple adapter because those communications standards allow for a wide variety of payment options, among other things. I do not have time to search the specific references but they are all on the CharIN site.

 

[JeffK]

Association Infos: Charging Interface Initiative e. V. (CharIN e. V.)
Within the documents available on the site above are all the specific rules. CHarIn does at present prohibit connection made in any manner other than those specified in these rules. Tesla, or anyone else, would need rules changes to allow any form of adapter. Technically it is not a problem, especially since Tesla already has CharIn compliant communications protocols, which would be a larger task than a simple adapter because those communications standards allow for a wide variety of payment options, among other things. I do not have time to search the specific references but they are all on the CharIN site.

Let's also not forget that Tesla is a core member of CharIN e.V.