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Square vs. Staggered for 85D

Discussion in 'Model S: Driving Dynamics' started by benf, Oct 20, 2015.

  1. benf

    benf Member

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    So I just ordered an 85D with the standard 19" wheels with the intention of upgrading them immediately and keeping the stock wheels for the lease turn in. After looking at many choices, a nice compromise in terms of weight, size, price, etc. seemed to be the TSW Nurburgring in 20x9 or 20x10 at ~23lbs & ~24lbs respectively.

    So, now the question for those of you with an 85D (not P85D): would you bother going staggered? I have two choices:

    20x9 +35 front (245x40x20)
    20x10 +35 rear (275x35x20)

    or

    20x9 +35 front (245x40x20)
    20x9 +20 rear (245x40x20)

    With good tires (Bridgestone Potenza S-04 Pole Positions...or similar summer tires) do you actually have traction issues in the rear? For a P85D this would be a no brainer and I'd go with the 275's, but for the 85D I'm not sure if it's necessary. If it's not, the 20x9 +20 would look almost identical to the 20x10 +35 and then I'd be able to buy 4 identical tires and rotate them instead of killing my rears. Thoughts?
     
  2. AWDtsla

    AWDtsla Active Member

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    85D doesn't have as much weight over the rear axle, it also has equal front and rear power capability. I don't see why you would.

    IMHO 85D has better dynamic characteristics because of this. Imagine throwing a whole adult person in the rear facing seats and driving around with that.
     
  3. llavalle

    llavalle Member

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    For straight line acceleration : with the stock 19in MXM4, I don't have ANY traction issue in the rear. The problem is actually the front.
    When in a curve, the car feels very well balanced.
     
  4. Khatsalano

    Khatsalano Member

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    You wouldn't do this for performance. The rear traction is no issue ... it only slips a little tiny bit in front. You would do this only for looks. And if you like the look, go for it. Otherwise, for performance, maintenance, and cost issues, staggered is not the way to go.
     
  5. CHG-ON

    CHG-ON Still in love after all these miles

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    I have staggered on a P85+. Not the same at all as your car. I love them. But really only for the looks. Get the squares. Much easier for you because you can rotate. I can't, which adds lots of cost down the road. Would I get them again? If I were sane, no.

    But they look soooo good!
     
  6. benf

    benf Member

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    Thanks for the extremely helpful replies. You guys made that easy ;)

    Now to decide if I want to do 20x9 +35 all the way around (true square) or go 20x9 +20 in the rear for looks and have to dismount the tires to rotate them (free, but still a pain). Choices, choices...
     
  7. rogbmw

    rogbmw Member

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    I would go square for rotation and maintenance.
     
  8. bancroftc

    bancroftc Member

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    +1 on this. I've noticed the same with full acceleration. Front/steering feels like it floats around a little bit. Not sure if it's the right terminology, but would that be understeer? It's never been unmanageable but it is definitely noticeable on full straight acceleration off the line. Zero traction/slippage issues in rear. Traction control does a great job.
     
  9. AWDtsla

    AWDtsla Active Member

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    Weight transfer...
     
  10. ifung90

    ifung90 Member

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    i wouldn't consider BS S04 good summer tires. I'd save the money and go continental DW or a little more and get Michelin pilot super sports.

    In in the end it's what you like in terms of looks. Keep in mind the awd system is not a one engine split bias to two axles. It's two separate motor with different hp rating front n rear. So in terms of that I don't see why not run staggered since the front motor has less power than the rear motor. With different offset wheels, you're paying the shop for a dismounting fee to swap the tires over anyway. tires are expendable items if you're looking for more than the daily commute.
     
  11. benf

    benf Member

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    BS S04's and Michelin Super Sports are directly comparable. After owning several sets of both, if the Super Sports are #1, S04's are a close second. Certainly in terms of cost/performance, the S04's win hands down. That said, with the Tesla ride comfort and noise are more important to me, so I'm doing the Continental DW's.

    As for the motors having different horsepower, it's my understanding that the front and rear motor on the 85D are identical. This is why I specifically said I would go staggered with a P85D, but my question was about a regular 85D.

    Finally, America's Tire does free tire rotations, including free dismounting, remounting, balancing, etc. There is no fee to swap tires around for the lifetime of the tires, as I mentioned in my post. That said, it would still be easier to just have 4 identical wheels as there's always a small risk involved in dismounting and remounting a used tire.
     
  12. ifung90

    ifung90 Member

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    I've had both S04 and PSS back to back as well, even tire rack specialist would tell you they have a clear distinctive difference when pushed to the limits. The S04 is a replacement for those who considered S001 (OE tire) to be too expensive.

    Wet grip I would say PSS inspires quite a lot more confidence over the S04.

    Either or, I'd go with the DW as well if I was situated in the states so good choice!
     
  13. Battman

    Battman Member

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    I was in your exact same situation one month ago. Looking at getting TSW rotary forged wheels and debating on which one, staggered or not, and which tires. I preferred to get the TSW Bathurst instead of the Nurburgrings. Both are Rotary Forged and just as light weight. When I saw them first hand, I had to go STAGGERED. Not the most sensible decision, but every time I look at my car, I have absolutely No Regrets. It looks soooo much better than if all four were narrow.

    I also went with the Conti DW's. Never had the S04's, but according to Tire Rack the DW's were superior to both the S04's and PSS in terms of rolling efficiency by a significant amount. Compared to the stock 19' Primacy's, these handle significantly better and still are very comfortable in terms of ride and quietness.

    FullSizeRender.jpg IMG_4463.JPG IMG_4476.JPG
     
  14. FlatSix911

    FlatSix911 918 Hybrid

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    #14 FlatSix911, Oct 22, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2015
    Go with the staggered offsets for the front and rear ... the concave dish shape of the rear wheel is more pronounced.
    Forged M6 wheels - Front 8.5 ET offset 15, Rear 9.5 ET offset 15 :cool:

    attachment.php?attachmentid=96378&stc=1&d=1443769878.jpg
     
  15. marty2112

    marty2112 Member

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    Very Nice!

    Can you provide wheel details. Thx
     
  16. benf

    benf Member

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    Looks great :). Thanks for sharing! I'm glad to hear you are enjoying the DW's, makes me more confident in that decision. Like you, I also noticed on tirerack that the MPG (rolling efficiency) was significantly better with them than other summer tires, so it's definitely a nice bonus combined with the weight savings of the wheels.

    I will likely go with the 20x9+20 rears and stagger the wheels offsets but not the widths. Although that extra inch of rubber does look nice :D.

    My original plan was to go full square and run a 10mm spacer in the rear, but as it turns out, some time in 2014-2015 Tesla shortened the wheel studs so 10mm and 15mm spacers don't appear to fit safely anymore without replacing the wheel studs :(. That's OK though, the extra concave look of the +20 offset should look cool.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Oh, and on an unrelated note Battman, are your wheels the matte gunmetal? I assume that's the same color as the matte gunmetal nurburgrings? They look so different depending on the lighting it's hard to tell sometimes. :D
     
  17. Battman

    Battman Member

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    My wheels are 20" TSW Bathurst Gunmetal. The gunmetal of the Bathurst is Glossy, versus the matte of the Nurburgrings. Also the Bathursts just came out this year, so fewer cars will have it. There are two VW's in my area that have Nurburgrings, so I didn't want to look like I was copying them. The size are 9" front and 10"rear. The offset for both is 35mm. On the TSW website they have a great model of a Tesla Model S where you can place the wheels of your choice (way better than Tire Rack's).

    The Conti DW's are 245/40/20 and 275/35/20. So they are the prefect size of the factory tires, so no speedo error.
     
  18. marty2112

    marty2112 Member

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    Thx.
     
  19. Battman

    Battman Member

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    Since you will not be able to rotate your wheels front and back, can you explain why you would not go with the wider rear wheels and tires? Cost is the same, and they will look significantly better staggered. Is there an advantage that I don't know?
     
  20. Terra117

    Terra117 Member

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    I went with TSW Nurburgrings in 20x9 ET35 with 255/40-20 Conti's all around.

    No issues with traction mashing the pedal to the floor on dry/clean pavement. Every first time passenger wants to experience max acceleration, and the only issue thus far was dirt/sand on the left side wheels. TC kicked in, so that passenger got a do-over.

    I didn't go square so much for rotating purposes, but mainly to get extra rubber on the front drive wheels, which are doing triple duty (drive, steer, brake).

    For a time I was worried that not going with 265's or 275's in the rear was a mistake. Turns out my fears were unfounded.

    255's are lighter, cheaper, and have less rolling resistance. The one possible negative could be a bit of added oversteer, which I won't mind one bit.
     

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