SR+ LFP Battery Design

[SwansonRon]

I'm coming from a Chevy Bolt and leaving for obvious reasons. On the Bolt forums, many of us are moving over to Model 3s. Whenever someone posts they are moving to a model 3 LFP, people are commenting that we will have the same issues as the Bolt. They claim the LFP is the same pouch design (and possibly made by LG?) as the Bolt.

Is any of this true or is it all hogwash? I read the NCA uses cylindrical battery cell design, but does anyone know about the LFP? Is what these people on the forums saying true at all? They just keep pushing it that anyone buying an LFP will have the same risks as the Bolt, but at double the price (teeeheee!!).

 

[dmurphy]

I'm coming from a Chevy Bolt and leaving for obvious reasons. On the Bolt forums, many of us are moving over to Model 3s. Whenever someone posts they are moving to a model 3 LFP, people are commenting that we will have the same issues as the Bolt. They claim the LFP is the same pouch design (and possibly made by LG?) as the Bolt.

Is any of this true or is it all hogwash? I read the NCA uses cylindrical battery cell design, but does anyone know about the LFP? Is what these people on the forums saying true at all? They just keep pushing it that anyone buying an LFP will have the same risks as the Bolt, but at double the price (teeeheee!!).

All hogwash.

Tesla's LFP batteries are from CATL, not LG. They are prismatic, but not the same design as LG. Not even close.

The Bolt batteries have NMC cathodes - nickel/magnesium/cobalt.
The LFP batteries have iron cathodes.

Wholly different ends of the spectrum as far as composition is concerned.

Have no concerns. None at all.

 

[dmurphy]

All hogwash.

Tesla's LFP batteries are from CATL, not LG. They are prismatic, but not the same design as LG. Not even close.

The Bolt batteries have NMC cathodes - nickel/magnesium/cobalt.
The LFP batteries have iron cathodes.

Wholly different ends of the spectrum as far as composition is concerned.

Have no concerns. None at all.

Whoops - I blew it. The Bolt's cathode is nickel/manganese/cobalt. Not magnesium. Duh.

#include <coffee.h>

 

[stopcrazypp]

Is any of this true or is it all hogwash? I read the NCA uses cylindrical battery cell design, but does anyone know about the LFP? Is what these people on the forums saying true at all? They just keep pushing it that anyone buying an LFP will have the same risks as the Bolt, but at double the price (teeeheee!!).

Other than what was said, due to the chemistry difference, even if they were pouch cells, LFP in general is a safer chemistry. The nickel/cobalt heavy chemistries tend to be more volatile (this applies to both NCA used by Panasonic and NMC by LG). Another critical difference is it's not made by LG. The SK cells are similar to LG, but they are not having the fire problems. There's something wrong with LG's manufacturing process or their assembly method that's introducing these defects (they use something called stack and fold).

 

[Phlier]

Whoops - I blew it. The Bolt's cathode is nickel/manganese/cobalt. Not magnesium. Duh.

#include <coffee.h>

OK, so this is totally off topic, but I just had to say I’m so sorry about your Buster. I just can’t even…

A new pup can never replace a family member, but they can help to take the sting out a bit.

 

[dmurphy]

OK, so this is totally off topic, but I just had to say I’m so sorry about your Buster. I just can’t even…

A new pup can never replace a family member, but they can help to take the sting out a bit.

Thank you. That really, truly means a lot. It was a very sudden loss - we had a great, perfectly normal morning on Fathers Day. He laid down for his early afternoon nap (which was always after the late late morning nap and before the midday nap!) and just … never woke up. I’m not even remotely embarrassed at what an ugly mess I was. Miss him beyond words.

Now, on your second part…. Long story short but that sorta happened way earlier than we expected. We had reached out to Buster’s breeder to put our name on the waitlist and they happened to have 2 pups left from a current litter. Even better - the pup’s mom was Buster’s aunt. So our new puppy is Buster’s first cousin.

Say hello to Miss Daisy!

 

[Phlier]

Hello Miss Daisy!

OMG, she's soooo cute!

I'm sure she'll never fill the hole left by Buster, but I'm sure she'll at least fill in the edges a bit. ; )

 

[ODWms]

Well, I'm sure you can't wait to get her in the Tesla. You know, you can be driving Miss....

Ok, I'ma exit right over here --->

 

[Blackbart]

I don’t know if this is the place for this or if there ought to be a new thread but… I am curious how Tesla is planning to navigate the window sticker number vs actual max range on the LFP SR+ cars. I picked mine up yesterday and as everyone says the sticker says 262 miles and the battery definitely only charged to 253 miles when I plugged it in (got there fast vs my old mid range model 3 it seemed). I assume the plan is to send out a software update that extends the available range? But no one at the SC said as much. Will be interesting… I’d love to hear if / when anyone charges one of these to 262 miles.

 

[dmurphy]

Well, I'm sure you can't wait to get her in the Tesla. You know, you can be driving Miss....

Ok, I'ma exit right over here --->

Haha absolutely - I need a chauffeur’s cap!!

Hello Miss Daisy!

OMG, she's soooo cute!

I'm sure she'll never fill the hole left by Buster, but I'm sure she'll at least fill in the edges a bit. ; )

It is amazing how quickly they work their way into your heart. She’s got me all wrapped up around her paw, that’s for sure!

 

[Gasaraki]

I'm coming from a Chevy Bolt and leaving for obvious reasons. On the Bolt forums, many of us are moving over to Model 3s. Whenever someone posts they are moving to a model 3 LFP, people are commenting that we will have the same issues as the Bolt. They claim the LFP is the same pouch design (and possibly made by LG?) as the Bolt.

Is any of this true or is it all hogwash? I read the NCA uses cylindrical battery cell design, but does anyone know about the LFP? Is what these people on the forums saying true at all? They just keep pushing it that anyone buying an LFP will have the same risks as the Bolt, but at double the price (teeeheee!!).

No. Not even close to the same design. Different chemistry, different battery design (pouch vs. 2170 design), different manufacturer.

 

[Gasaraki]

I don’t know if this is the place for this or if there ought to be a new thread but… I am curious how Tesla is planning to navigate the window sticker number vs actual max range on the LFP SR+ cars. I picked mine up yesterday and as everyone says the sticker says 262 miles and the battery definitely only charged to 253 miles when I plugged it in (got there fast vs my old mid range model 3 it seemed). I assume the plan is to send out a software update that extends the available range? But no one at the SC said as much. Will be interesting… I’d love to hear if / when anyone charges one of these to 262 miles.

If you agreed to get the SR+ quicker, you agreed to get the one with the LFP battery from China. That battery has a lower max range as stated in the email.

 

[jjrandorin]

If you agreed to get the SR+ quicker, you agreed to get the one with the LFP battery from China. That battery has a lower max range as stated in the email.

View attachment 708846

This is true, but tesla also has a history of not having the (legally required to be accurate) monroney sticker to properly show what comes with the car. The monroney stickers should show the lower range. Even if people agreed to this, there will be some who will try to take advantage and sue tesla saying "my monroney doesnt match reality", even though they already agreed to that stipulation.

They will say some combination of "I didnt understand what that agreement ment" or "I understood that stipulation, but when the car was provided, the legally required monroney sticker shows 262 so thats what I expected to get".

It will definitely happen. It shouldnt, especially since those same people will have agreed that they would take a shorter range vehicle, but it will DEFINITELY happen, whether we hear about it or not.

 

[Gasaraki]

This is true, but tesla also has a history of not having the (legally required to be accurate) monroney sticker to properly show what comes with the car. The monroney stickers should show the lower range. Even if people agreed to this, there will be some who will try to take advantage and sue tesla saying "my monroney doesnt match reality", even though they already agreed to that stipulation.

They will say some combination of "I didnt understand what that agreement ment" or "I understood that stipulation, but when the car was provided, the legally required monroney sticker shows 262 so thats what I expected to get".

It will definitely happen. It shouldnt, especially since those same people will have agreed that they would take a shorter range vehicle, but it will DEFINITELY happen, whether we hear about it or not.

Yeah but that range battery icon means nothing. In a week that number will have gone down already. The monroney sticker EPA estimate is exactly that, an estimate. So they gave you a monroney that said the estimated range is so and so. Just because you didn't get that, you can't sue Tesla. (Can you?)

 

[jjrandorin]

Yeah but that range battery icon means nothing. In a week that number will have gone down already. The monroney stick EPA estimate is exactly that, an estimate. So they gave you a monroney that said the estimated range is so and so. Just because you didn't get that, you can't sue Tesla. (Can you?)

I dont know, but someone will probably try. If I were into this sort of thing (I am not) I would look to see if there was precedent for someone suing an ICE manufacturer for an ICE vehicle not being able to achieve EPA rated numbers under any circumstances.

If tesla provided a monroney that says 262 but their EPA filing for the car provided shows the delivered vehicle "can never" reach that, even under EPA testing..... shrug.

This is one of those things where Tesla's ineptitude for details really hurts them, because the monroney for these vehicles should state the EPA estimate for the battery thats in the vehicle (so these should not say 262 if thats not what testing shows).

User @Blackbart said "Everyone says the sticker says 262...." It doesnt matter what "everyone says" it matters what was on @Blackbart 's specific monroney sticker. If they didnt get one (because tesla doesnt give them out when they are supposed to), they should get one and see what it says. "everyone says the sticker says" isnt relevant.

 

[David L]

LFP is generally regarded as being much safer than NMC. There are a few YT videos showing tests in which LFP cells are punctured and do not catch fire. LFPs are also commonly used to build DIY "Powerwall" systems by people who live off-grid or in RVs. If you look through the "DIY Solar Power Forum," there are reports/pictures of accidental overcharge of prismatic LFP cells, which typically bloat and possibly release gas/electrolyte through their pressure relief valve, but do not typically catch fire.

 

[Blackbart]

I dont know, but someone will probably try. If I were into this sort of thing (I am not) I would look to see if there was precedent for someone suing an ICE manufacturer for an ICE vehicle not being able to achieve EPA rated numbers under any circumstances.

If tesla provided a monroney that says 262 but their EPA filing for the car provided shows the delivered vehicle "can never" reach that, even under EPA testing..... shrug.

This is one of those things where Tesla's ineptitude for details really hurts them, because the monroney for these vehicles should state the EPA estimate for the battery thats in the vehicle (so these should not say 262 if thats not what testing shows).

User @Blackbart said "Everyone says the sticker says 262...." It doesnt matter what "everyone says" it matters what was on @Blackbart 's specific monroney sticker. If they didnt get one (because tesla doesnt give them out when they are supposed to), they should get one and see what it says. "everyone says the sticker says" isnt relevant.

Picked up the car and it does indeed have a sticker that says 262. I’m fine with 254 miles of range (which is why I bought it) but I do think the stickers are somewhat binding (like an ingredients label on food) and strongly suspect Tesla did not “accidentally” put 262 miles on there. We shall see but my guess is they have an upgrade up their sleeve. As I say - if not I’m personally fine with it. I will say vs my 2019 M3 this car charges faster, is quite a bit more efficient and has not shown the almost immediate reduction in range that the old car did. Impressive progress in just a couple of years!

 

[Scrannel]

As stated, the Bolt has LG Pouch batteries... and so does the new Ford Mach E. Apparently Ford has left more of a "buffer" than the Bolt: 11%.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Picked up the car and it does indeed have a sticker that says 262. I’m fine with 254 miles of range (which is why I bought it) but I do think the stickers are somewhat binding (like an ingredients label on food) and strongly suspect Tesla did not “accidentally” put 262 miles on there. We shall see but my guess is they have an upgrade up their sleeve. As I say - if not I’m personally fine with it. I will say vs my 2019 M3 this car charges faster, is quite a bit more efficient and has not shown the almost immediate reduction in range that the old car did. Impressive progress in just a couple of years!

The European LFP batteries got an update that unlocked the bottom buffer (so it matches the non LFP cars) and gave roughly 6% more range. So maybe a similar update is pending for the LFP cars.
Updated MIC Tesla Model 3 SR+ Gets 6% More Range In New Test

 

[USBSeawolf2000]

The European LFP batteries got an update that unlocked the bottom buffer (so it matches the non LFP cars) and gave roughly 6% more range. So maybe a similar update is pending for the LFP cars.
Updated MIC Tesla Model 3 SR+ Gets 6% More Range In New Test

2021.11.103 reports the buffer to be 2.5kWh so that 6% has been "unlocked" already. Yet the full charge is still showing 253 miles.