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Staggered Tires for Non-Performance?

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I totally agree with that, except the P85D+.. Same suspension (or very close) with the added pull from the front motor I feel performs and handles just a tad better than the P85+.

When playing around with some friends in my P85D, I could not get the rear to break loose like I easily could in my P85+.
 
The P85+ suspension plus staggered setup is the best handling Model S that Tesla made. Whether it's the suspension or the staggered tires, or both, the P85+ rides on rails, has extremely precise steering, and doesn't feel "floaty" like all of the Model S variations made since.
I think that's mostly due to the insane camber that was on the early P85+'s... wearing through tires in 5k miles, but the handling is great! I know this because I have one (2012 #1954)

This can be corrected through taller suspension links that run about $500 - best $500 investment you can make for the early cars.
 
Also, you keep mentioning how the steering is better.. I'm having trouble with that because with the staggered setup, the front wheels/tires don't change and the marginally bigger rear wheels won't really affect steering like you say it does.

As I mentioned, this is real - I've driven so many different loan cars with and without staggered cars, I can personally verify it. How many different Model S cars have you actually driven, by the way?

But don't take my word for it - ask anyone else who has driven these cars. And you can't get a better authority than Chris Porritt: the man behind the Aston Martin million-dollar supercar. If he says staggered tyres improve the steering feel, I think there's a pretty good indication it's true.
 
I guess you didn't read my post. From a scientific point of view, like I said, driving "so many different cars" introduces so many more variables that affect handling that you just can't say with any certainty that it's the staggered wheels. While I have kept all other variables constant and ONLY changed from square to staggered on the same car, the same day, the same roads and found no differences. You can't make that claim.

People like Chris actually push these cars to their absolute limits at speeds much greater than normal driving and on banked racetracks where yes, staggered wheels make a difference. Driving to the supermarket to get dog food... Not so much.
 
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Looking at tirerack.com the 265 sized tires require a rim width of 9"-10.5". And the stock 21" rims are 8.5". Is the half inch a big deal or thoughts on buying two new rims for the rear for the "P" edition that are 9" wide. And then sell the two 8.5" I have.

If you're going to buy two new wheels you might as well go 285. I run 20x10.5" in the rear.
 
While I have kept all other variables constant and ONLY changed from square to staggered on the same car, the same day, the same roads and found no differences. You can't make that claim.

I disagree. I've done back-to-back tests and, yes, I can tell the difference.

Now, sure, if one drives on straight US roads with only the occasional four-way stop, the differences will be very minor. But take the car out on a nice winding country road and the differences are easily felt - most noticeably through the steering. These are the kinds of roads I drive every day - I live on the edge of the Cotswold Hills, here in England, and we have some great driving roads (shame about the road surfaces - but that's another matter).

I also know what good steering feel is, having had my first revelation driving a BMW 528 for many years. The Model S isn't in that league - too big and heavy - but my P90DL with its current tyre setup isn't too shoddy either.

My first calibration was a series of loan cars I had when my first car (P85) was frequently back at the service centre. The P85+ cars all stood out for their much more precise steering feel (and no, this wasn't just changing the steering setting to "Sport"). Over the past 3 years I've driven a whole range of otherwise identical cars, but with different wheels - all on the same roads - so I think I can definitively say that yes, it is the staggered wheels that makes the difference. Subtle, but very much real.

I'm in good company - Chris Porritt and Elon Musk both advocate this setup - and Tesla even started fitting staggered wheels to the non-performance models too. In fact, if you look at most high-end performance cars from Porsche, Mercedes, Aston Martin, etc., they all have staggered wheels - even the "all-wheel-drive" ones.

So, in summary: we can tell the difference, but I accept that for some drivers on less interesting roads, this may not be so noticeable.
 
if you look at most high-end performance cars from Porsche, Mercedes, Aston Martin, etc., they all have staggered wheels

Here's the disconnect. When these other makes install staggered wheels, most of the time the front rims have a smaller diameter than the rear, which has a profound effect on steering and handling. This is what Chris is most likely referring to w/r/t steering feel. I've owned several cars with a "real" staggered setup (smaller diameter front rims) and they do make a difference.

But on the Tesla, adding just 20mm of width on the rear tires will not have the profound effect you are perceiving. You perceive it, so it's real to you, I can't change that.

And you keep comparing all these different cars with different rims and tires... so one day you have a S60 loaner with a spring suspension, 19" rims and squishy all-season tires, and the next day you have a P85+ with 21" rims, summer high-performance tires and staggered rims, and you're like: OMG THESE STAGGERED RIMS ARE AMAZING.

Not.
 
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the front rims have a smaller diameter than the rear, which has a profound effect on steering and handling. This is what Chris is most likely referring to w/r/t steering feel. I've owned several cars with a "real" staggered setup (smaller diameter front rims) and they do make a difference

Yes, and this is also true with Tesla's staggered tyres. Look at the numbers:

Front: 245/35 R21

Radius = 0.5 × 533.4 mm (21”) + 85.75 mm (0.35 × 245 mm)

= 352.45 mm


Rear: 265/35 R21

Diameter = 0.5 × 533.4 mm (21”) + 92.75 (0.35 × 265 mm)

= 359.45 mm

So the radius of the rear wheels is 7 mm larger than the front tyres; these wheels are 14 mm taller than the front wheels.
 
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And you keep comparing all these different cars with different rims and tires

I'm talking about back-to-back tests with non-staggered 21s and staggered 21s. I can tell the difference - for spirited driving on twisty roads. (And I hope that by now you agree that the Tesla wheels are "proper" staggered wheels with smaller fronts and larger rears (both diameter and width) which, in your words, "do make a difference" ;-).
 
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Actually no, the Tesla wheels are NOT smaller in the front. The fronts are 8.5"x21" rims with 245/35-21 tires on both staggered and square setups. Go look it up.

As I've been saying all along, the ***ONLY*** difference between staggered and non-staggered rims are the **REAR** tires are 20mm wider. That's it. The rims and tires are all the same diameter.
 
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If you're going to buy two new wheels you might as well go 285. I run 20x10.5" in the rear.

Tesla doesn't have a 10.5" wide rim from what I can gather.

Ideally, I'd like 285 rear and 265 upfront but from what I've read 265 will run upfront.

Thanks for all the input. I'm going to be on the hunt for 21x9 gray turbines for my rear. I'll wait on getting new tires until I can find the rims. I know from my experience that staggered setups can make a big difference with launch and handling/braking. I'm glad to hear most agree it holds true on Tesla. And even though it's only millimeters; that can make a difference. Multiple inche variance? I've only seen that on very specific setups like drag and forumula cars.
 
Yes, and this is also true with Tesla's staggered tyres. Look at the numbers:

Front: 245/35 R21

Radius = 0.5 × 533.4 mm (21”) + 85.75 mm (0.35 × 245 mm)

= 352.45 mm


Rear: 265/35 R21

Diameter = 0.5 × 533.4 mm (21”) + 92.75 (0.35 × 265 mm)

= 359.45 mm

So the radius of the rear wheels is 7 mm larger than the front tyres; these wheels are 14 mm taller than the front wheels.

You could have just said: 20mm (the width delta) * .35 (aspect ratio)= 7mm.

My point about the front rims and steering is that the front rims in both staggered and square setups are identical.. and therefore a staggered setup (with 20mm wider rear tires) would not make a huge difference in steering, which uses the front wheels, last time I checked. And in fact, a staggered setup with larger tires in the rear increases understeer, which is the exact opposite of what you're describing ("more planted").
 
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You could have just said: 20mm (the width delta) * .35 (aspect ratio)= 7mm.

My point about the front rims and steering is that the front rims in both staggered and square setups are identical.. and therefore a staggered setup (with 20mm wider rear tires) would not make a huge difference in steering, which uses the front wheels, last time I checked. And in fact, a staggered setup with larger tires in the rear increases understeer, which is the exact opposite of what you're describing ("more planted").

A lot of high end vehicles have staggered setups including just about every Ferrari and Lamborghini. Even Elon and his engineer are in agreement. It might only be 20mm but sounds like it makes a big enough differnce to take notice.

Do you have a personal bias? Sold you're staggered setup? Swapped 21 for 19. Justified to yourself during configuration the 21s are just for show and not worth the money?
 
As an owner of a P85 and a P90DL, one with staggered and one without... and swapping between staggered/unstaggered (winter/summer), I can say I notice absolutely no difference in the handling between the staggered and unstaggered setup.

I don't go zipping around corners in my 5000lb Tesla, though, so YMMV. I have an Exige for that... with a staggered setup.

My opinion is that the 5000lb Tesla is not the proper platform for a staggered setup to make any appreciable difference for 99.9999% of the drivers out there. If and when I buy a new Tesla, I will not get a staggered setup if I have the option. The cost and pain in the ass factor on tires outweighs any teeny-tiny gains it might provide.

I'd rather have a set of tires that lasts 20k+ miles than a staggered setup that burns out a set in 8k miles because I can't rotate them and the rear camber eats them up.
 
As an owner of a P85 and a P90DL, one with staggered and one without... and swapping between staggered/unstaggered (winter/summer), I can say I notice absolutely no difference in the handling between the staggered and unstaggered setup.

I don't go zipping around corners in my 5000lb Tesla, though, so YMMV. I have an Exige for that... with a staggered setup.

My opinion is that the 5000lb Tesla is not the proper platform for a staggered setup to make any appreciable difference for 99.9999% of the drivers out there. If and when I buy a new Tesla, I will not get a staggered setup if I have the option. The cost and pain in the ass factor on tires outweighs any teeny-tiny gains it might provide.

I'd rather have a set of tires that lasts 20k+ miles than a staggered setup that burns out a set in 8k miles because I can't rotate them and the rear camber eats them up.

My 85D had non staggered 21" Conti Silents and they lasted 20K+ miles and were never rotated. They had the same treadwear for each tire for the entire life of the set so YMMV is right. Somewhere in these threads I do remember reading the older MS having a lot of rear camber but only in the beginning.
 
I'd rather have a set of tires that lasts 20k+ miles than a staggered setup that burns out a set in 8k miles because I can't rotate them and the rear camber eats them up.

My 21" staggered wheels w/265/245 ContiSilents are wearing evenly ( Definitive 21inch Turbines vs 19inch Slipstream Photo Thread ) and expected to reach 30K miles per my last service appt. Currently 21K+ miles on S90D and rolling ever so fine & fast. :D

As for comparative performance to non-staggered, I've no idea. But I drive like a bat outta hell and I'm satisfied with what I have.