Standard Warranty Revealed

[Adm]

The German Roadster driver Hans-Jörg von Gemmingen has used and abused his Roadster for 4 years, driving over 125k mi and has 70% left.

Assuming Model S has better BMS and no abuse (racing and running the battery to 0%) I'd like to believe things can only improve over his numbers.

 

[jerry33]

10 times seems way high for weekly supercharger use

If I had my Model S and if there were superchargers along the route, I would have used one ten times this week:

Two trips from Texas to Nebraska times two supercharges each way + one supercharge at the Nebraska end for each trip (Didn't stay overnight, just there and back).

 

[Lyon]

If I had my Model S and if there were superchargers along the route, I would have used one ten times this week:

Two trips from Texas to Nebraska times two supercharges each way + one supercharge at the Nebraska end for each trip (Didn't stay overnight, just there and back).

Do you make trips like this often? I might be concerned about the longevity of your battery if that's the case. However, if that trip is the exception as opposed to the rule you should be fine, right?

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

Renault will give you a new battery if your battery drops below 75% capacity for the Zoe. It's a battery rental agreement, of course, but the principle is the same.

No, it's not. One is a lease, one is a warranty.

Tesla loads all the risk of battery degradation onto the customer. Renault takes all the risk onto themself. Why is that?

Because Renault is shafting it's customers with it's lease.

Does Renault have better batteries that they are sure will work as opposed to Tesla?

No, they don't. Which is why they are leasing them instead of selling them.

If Tesla doesn't believe in their product, why should the customer?

Tesla believes in it's product enough to provide an 8 year unlimited mileage warranty on it's 85kWh battery. Renault is providing a lease that costs $1,320/year and limits you to 7,500 miles/year. Over 8 years the lease costs you $10,560.

On a per kWh basis (Zoe is 22kWh) that works out to $40,800 to lease Tesla's 85kWh battery, and you are limited to 60,000 miles of use. You have to be both naturally foolish, and smoking crack, to think that Renault is offering a better deal than Tesla. Consider also, that at the end of the 8 years you still own the Tesla battery. If at any point you fail to pay your Renault lease, they will remotely brick your car until you pay up. Which you will have to do, month after month and year after money losing year.

Look, I can understand that Tesla is hesitant to warranty a specific capacity, I really can. If I had my own company, I would be hesitant to bet the company on our products working as intended. Tesla would be bankrupt if all Model S batteries degraded faster than expected and needed to be replaced under warranty. If that were to happen, it would be better for Tesla to write off all their customers up to that point, and try to instead win new customers with improved warranties and promises. The way the warranty is worded allows Tesla to do that. If all Model S batteries are at 70% after 4 years, Tesla has the option of telling all Model S customers to get lost. It wouldn't exactly be good PR for the company, but at least they wouldn't be bankrupt.

Even so, they should bet the company on the Model S working as intended. It is the only right thing to do when your customers are betting up to $100k on the Model S working as intended. The customers shouldn't be stuck with all the risk.

The real risk to me would be if I were foolish enough to sign the Renault battery lease agreement for the tiny, short ranged, low performance Zoe in lieu of purchasing a Tesla Model S.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

You won't actually end up with no battery. The options are closer to being:

- Pay around $35,000 for a 300 mile battery for the model S, which might last 22 years/395,000 miles, but probably won't last much more than 15 years/200,000 miles, and could very well last a lot less than that.
- Pay around $35,000 for a 100 mile battery for a ZOE that is guaranteed to have a minium of 75% capacity for 22 years/395,000 miles. (Or pay less for less distance/fewer years.)

Tesla obviously has the advantage of the longer range, but when it comes to the warranty terms, Tesla is out-classed.

At some point, actually performing some math might be helpful to illustrate your argument. 22 YEARS of the Zoe lease costs ~$113,000 dollars on a per kWh comparison with the Tesla 85kWh battery. Which doesn't come with those ridiculously low 7,500 mile/year limits. That is enough to pay for 3 Tesla 85kWh batteries outright, each with an 8 year unlimited mileage warranty.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

But we're getting a bit away from the issue. The issue is not the specifics of the comparison with Renault, the issue is that Renault can and does offer better terms for battery capacity.

No. It. Does. Not.

Renault is offering a terrible deal in comparison to Tesla. They are really ripping off their customers IMHO.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

Ygg: The zoe will cost you 36,500 usd for 8 years and 96,000 miles with the (75%) warranty and a 12,000 mile yearly range.
[21,000 usd upfront and 1,918 usd per year (12,000 mile/year milage) x8 years for the battery lease, uk prices]
I think that's all good.

Renault have said that they expect the usable battery life to be 8-10 years, also there are many constraints in the actual contract

4.2.1 No amendment may extend the Maximum Contractual Mileage beyond 120,000 miles.
4.2.2 No amendment may extend the Period of Hire beyond 72 months.

http://www.renault.co.uk/Resources/PDF/batteryterms.pdf

Another thing to contemplate is what if Renault would have the same apply for a 85 kwh battery, what would they charge?
Assuming a battery twice as large would cost about twice as much and hence the lease cost would be doubled as well, would it be (85/24)*[lease cost of the 24kwh battery]?

Lets see, if we use the 18,000 yearly mile number from your link that's 2,477 usd/year (133 GBP/month* exchange rate(1.55)*12) . Multiplied by (85/24), times 8 years = 70,195 usd.
Added to that you have the cost of the car itself.

Battery lease is a good option and the warranty is reassuring but it's not without constraints, there is no free lunch.

Yay, actual maths. And of course, if you fail to pay your lease at any time you are insta-bricked. I disagree that the lease is a good option though. Renault is really shafting its customers.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Tesla believes in it's product enough to provide an 8 year unlimited mileage warranty on it's 85kWh battery. Renault is providing a lease that costs $1,320/year and limits you to 7,500 miles/year. Over 8 years the lease costs you $10,560.

When the Tesla warranty doesn't cover anything Tesla considers "normal" degredation, it's a worthless warranty. The laws over here are such that it is legally iffy for Tesla to even call it a warranty, because a "warranty" must have better terms than you already have under consumer laws.

On a per kWh basis (Zoe is 22kWh) that works out to $40,800 to lease Tesla's 85kWh battery, and you are limited to 60,000 miles of use. You have to be both naturally foolish, and smoking crack, to think that Renault is offering a better deal than Tesla. Consider also, that at the end of the 8 years you still own the Tesla battery. If at any point you fail to pay your Renault lease, they will remotely brick your car until you pay up. Which you will have to do, month after month and year after money losing year.

If you leased 85 kWh, you would also get the added range associated with the kWh. So, you would get 232,000 miles on 85 kWh worth of Zoe batteries. ((60k/22)*85)

Of course, this doesn't compare the higher mileage leases, which are cheaper per mile.

 

[Yggdrasill]

At some point, actually performing some math might be helpful to illustrate your argument. 22 YEARS of the Zoe lease costs ~$113,000 dollars on a per kWh comparison with the Tesla 85kWh battery. Which doesn't come with those ridiculously low 7,500 mile/year limits. That is enough to pay for 3 Tesla 85kWh batteries outright, each with an 8 year unlimited mileage warranty.

22 years of leasing 85 kWh of Zoe batteries would imply a driven distance of 637,500 miles. Although it would cost around $113k, how many Model S batteries would one need for that distance? Three? Four? The cost would be about the same...

And if you use the higher mileage leases that I linked to above, you'd get around 1,526,000 miles, for around $135k. How many Model S batteries would that take? Seven? Eight?

 

[PeterW]

22 years of leasing 85 kWh of Zoe batteries would imply a driven distance of 637,500 miles. Although it would cost around $113k, how many Model S batteries would one need for that distance? Three? Four? The cost would be about the same...

Going by Elon's comment that they actually expect the batteries to have a usable life of twice the warranty period, then the answer is 2. Sorry, I mean one and a half.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Going by Elon's comment that they actually expect the batteries to have a usable life of twice the warranty period, then the answer is 2. Sorry, I mean one and a half.

And how has he defined "useable life"? More than 10% battery capacity? 70%?

If the latter, why not simply warranty battery degradation? If you have someone who absuses their battery and halves their battery life, they'd still not need a replacement under a 70%/200,000 miles warranty. As Tesla does not offer this warranty, I would expect that Elon is not talking about 70%, at least.

 

[Yggdrasill]

The more I think about this issue, the more my enthusiasm for Tesla is cooling off. I won't be cancelling my reservation, but I can't see that I'll be advocating EVs, either. If Tesla can't warranty battery degradation, EVs just aren't ready for mass adoption. Maybe they will be in a few years.

 

[PeterW]

And how has he defined "useable life"? More than 10% battery capacity? 70%?

If the latter, why not simply warranty battery degradation? If you have someone who absuses their battery and halves their battery life, they'd still not need a replacement under a 70%/200,000 miles warranty. As Tesla does not offer this warranty, I would expect that Elon is not talking about 70%, at least.

To me, anything below 2/3 of the original capacity would be below "usable life", so I would hope he is talking 70%. But lets say 50% after 16 years and I replaced my battery at 70% after 12 years. The answer is still 2.

 

[Yggdrasill]

To me, anything below 2/3 of the original capacity would be below "usable life", so I would hope he is talking 70%. But lets say 50% after 16 years and I replaced my battery at 70% after 12 years. The answer is still 2.

Still, looking at the higher mileage lease calculations, assuming 300,000 miles before replacement would mean that you'd need 5 Model S batteries for 1.5 million miles. That would cost something like $175k today, compared to $135k for the battery lease today.

Using the low mileage leases will be a bit misleading, because the base (non-mileage) costs will be the same for a high and a low-mileage lease. This includes breakdown assistance, administration, etc.

 

[Adm]

The highest quoted mileage for the Renault battery rental is 18k mi/yr. 8 years is $19790(UK prices) for a warranteed 70% battery that has 24kWh
The total mileage for that contract is 144k mi.

Now please tell me you assume that the 85kWh won't last that many miles and that many years and we can stop the discussion right here right now. I still believe it's an insurance issue for Tesla and nothing else.

Now let's assume degradation for the Model S is below expectation at that point (after 8 years) and you need to buy a new one. You think a 85kWh costs €35k, so there is a price difference of about $15k.

For this $15k you get about 150mi (conservatively) extra mi range and it's attached to a car that is about double the size. Whether or not that is worth $15k to you is a matter of personal preference. It would be to me.

Now, should Renault decide to make a car similar in size as the Tesla Model S, the battery would have to increase in capacity to keep the same range as the Zoë. This would imply that the rental price would go up and the difference in price would become smaller.

Sorry, I like the fact that Renault takes a more affordable car to the market, but the battery plan is hardly a steal. It will however probably help some people take the decision to go electric and that's good which ever way you see it. As more competion comes, the prices will become more competitive and so will Renault's.

A special note to the Dutch market: As I check the Dutch prices, I noticed that on top of the battery rental there is an obligatory insurance to be paid for the battery. I called a dealer, as there was no price on the website. Of course I got the rookie salesman/boy and he was pretty sure he saw € 7/$8.60 per month somewhere. He tried to find the exact number and as I was fed up with him after 5 min he mentioned between 7 and 9 euro's before I ended the call. Now battery rental in the Netherlands is cheaper than in the UK, so the insurance may be included there.

 

[jerry33]

Do you make trips like this often? I might be concerned about the longevity of your battery if that's the case. However, if that trip is the exception as opposed to the rule you should be fine, right?

Two or three times a year.

 

[smorgasbord]

Two trips from Texas to Nebraska times two supercharges each way + one supercharge at the Nebraska end for each trip (Didn't stay overnight, just there and back).

That's what airplanes are for.

Austin to Omaha, for instance, is something like 750 miles. Even with multiple drivers, I can't imagine not having an overnight somewhere in the middle of 20-24 hours of driving.

 

[ckessel]

If Tesla can't warranty battery degradation...

Does any battery manufacturer warranty degradation? I'm not talking just EV, but any battery at all?

 

[Mycroft]

That's what airplanes are for.

Or Skype.

Seriously, I agree. It might be more time/cost effective to fly if no overnights are involved.

 

[jerry33]

That's what airplanes are for.

Austin to Omaha, for instance, is something like 750 miles. Even with multiple drivers, I can't imagine not having an overnight somewhere in the middle of 20-24 hours of driving.

Cost of airfare+inconvenience+cost of rental car+rental car inconvenience=I don't fly unless there is a significant body of water between where I am and the destination.