Standard Warranty Revealed

[Tommy]

Does any battery manufacturer warranty degradation? I'm not talking just EV, but any battery at all?

Automotive batteries (the common 12v to start car) usually come with a prorated warranty where, as an example, the first 3 years from date of purchase the battery is replaced free of charge and the remainder of the warranty period (2 to 7 years) the battery is prorated to the replacement cost of the new battery.

This is the similarity I see: Tesla's 8 year warranty and the automotive battery 3 year free replacement portion of the warranty differ only in the length of the free replacement time period; both are basically replaced for defects in manufacturing or materials. In the case of the automotive battery, you know it's defective when the battery won't hold a charge or the car won't start (the degradation of the battery). However, the automotive battery has a prorated time period that Tesla does not have. Perhaps if Tesla prorated the replacement cost of the new battery for the timeframe between the 8th year to the 15th year that would mitigate some of the concerns being expressed about the battery warranty.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Still, looking at the higher mileage lease calculations, assuming 300,000 miles before replacement would mean that you'd need 5 Model S batteries for 1.5 million miles. That would cost something like $175k today, compared to $135k for the battery lease today.

Assuming 300k miles before replacement is the wrong assumption. Renault will not allow you to extend a lease beyond 6 years (72 months) and 120k miles. That means they don't expect their batteries to last much beyond that. In this case the time limit on the lease is a bigger limitation than your limit on miles (18k max per year, let's say you can get a 10 year lease, would give you 180k miles and that would not scale with battery size because that is a calendar life limitation).

4.2.1 No amendment may extend the Maximum Contractual Mileage beyond 120,000 miles.
4.2.2 No amendment may extend the Period of Hire beyond 72 months.

http://www.renault.co.uk/Resources/PDF/batteryterms.pdf

Battery lease is a good option and the warranty is reassuring but it's not without constraints, there is no free lunch.

Those terms are more worrying to me than Tesla's terms because it becomes a question of do you even have a battery anymore after 6 years/120k miles (and what kind of new terms would you have to agree with if you signed a new contract). You may be owning a car without a battery and be SOL at that point, whereas with the Tesla you still have your battery (albeit with lower capacity).

 

[stopcrazypp]

This is the similarity I see: Tesla's 8 year warranty and the automotive battery 3 year free replacement portion of the warranty differ only in the length of the free replacement time period; both are basically replaced for defects in manufacturing or materials. In the case of the automotive battery, you know it's defective when the battery won't hold a charge or the car won't start (the degradation of the battery).

That's not degradation, that's outright failure (the battery can't even operate the car), which would be covered by Tesla's warranty also. In the degradation case, the battery would be able to hold a charge and start/run the car, but will just have less capacity. Renault's example is the only one that is close to a degradation warranty, except it's for a leased battery that you don't own.

 

[Tommy]

That's not degradation, that's outright failure (the battery can't even operate the car), which would be covered by Tesla's warranty also. In the degradation case, the battery would be able to hold a charge and start/run the car, but will just have less capacity. Renault's example is the only one that is close to a degradation warranty, except it's for a leased battery that you don't own.

As you know batteries loose capacity as the temperature gets colder. One measurement of a batteries capacity is it's Cold Cranking Amperes (CCA). A battery that can start a car in warm weather as it deteriorates (the degradation) will be unable to start the same car in colder weather. That is exactly what happen to me and I was able to replace the battery under warranty. So it is not that the battery failed, it lost enough of its capacity that it could not start the car in cold weather and meet its CCA rating.

In reading these posts regarding the warranty, what has become clear to me is purchasers are really looking for Peace Of Mind. No one wants to have an unexpected expense, and in the case of the battery, a financially strapping expense. Anything Tesla can do to mitigate that concern is a plus.

 

[PeterW]

In reading these posts regarding the warranty, what has become clear to me is purchasers are really looking for Peace Of Mind. No one wants to have an unexpected expense, and in the case of the battery, a financially strapping expense. Anything Tesla can do to mitigate that concern is a plus.

I can understand that.

What I can say is that, based on the experience of Roadster owners, I am confidant that any genuine issues with a battery will be promptly dealt with by Tesla.

Also, based on recent comments by Elon, I have no worry that my battery will last 8 years before any significant degradation.

 

[jerry33]

In reading these posts regarding the warranty, what has become clear to me is purchasers are really looking for Peace Of Mind. No one wants to have an unexpected expense, and in the case of the battery, a financially strapping expense. Anything Tesla can do to mitigate that concern is a plus.

One of the advantages of previously having had another large-battery car, such as a Prius or a Roadster, is that you realize that the battery is mostly a non-issue. Certainly it's less of an issue than automatic transmission failure in a typical car. Battery failure rate is low and the few infant mortality cases that occur are taken care of.

As an example in the 2001-2003 Prius, where the battery is long out of warranty and is of the older style:

1. Less than half have replaced a battery based on the number of posts in the Prius groups so battery life isn't a problem.

2. Those that have replaced the battery have several choices: New battery from the dealer (and the cost isn't particularly high), rebuilt battery from third party (not much difference in cost but the newer cells are used), or salvage battery from a wreck.

Yes, the chemistry is different in the Tesla, but based on the reported Roadster experience, I don't expect to see any different behaviour as far as battery life is concerned. It's too bad the nay-sayers have repeated their FUD so often that those who have the various cars spend most of their time saying "It isn't so" or "No, you don't replace the battery every three to five years", etc. Even those who are interested in EVs have to get over the energy gradient that the nay-sayers have put up.

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

When the Tesla warranty doesn't cover anything Tesla considers "normal" degredation, it's a worthless warranty. The laws over here are such that it is legally iffy for Tesla to even call it a warranty, because a "warranty" must have better terms than you already have under consumer laws.

If you leased 85 kWh, you would also get the added range associated with the kWh. So, you would get 232,000 miles on 85 kWh worth of Zoe batteries. ((60k/22)*85)

Of course, this doesn't compare the higher mileage leases, which are cheaper per mile.

Doesn't change the brutal fact that the price Renault is charging for their lease is only reasonable if you assume total battery failure (i.e. a completely non-functioning battery with no salvage value) after 8 years and 60,000 miles. Thats pretty flippin far from "standing behind their product".

 

[CapitalistOppressor]

One of the advantages of previously having had another large-battery car, such as a Prius or a Roadster, is that you realize that the battery is mostly a non-issue. Certainly it's less of an issue than automatic transmission failure in a typical car. Battery failure rate is low and the few infant mortality cases that occur are taken care of.

As an example in the 2001-2003 Prius, where the battery is long out of warranty and is of the older style:

1. Less than half have replaced a battery based on the number of posts in the Prius groups so battery life isn't a problem.

2. Those that have replaced the battery have several choices: New battery from the dealer (and the cost isn't particularly high), rebuilt battery from third party (not much difference in cost but the newer cells are used), or salvage battery from a wreck.

Yes, the chemistry is different in the Tesla, but based on the reported Roadster experience, I don't expect to see any different behaviour as far as battery life is concerned. It's too bad the nay-sayers have repeated their FUD so often that those who have the various cars spend most of their time saying "It isn't so" or "No, you don't replace the battery every three to five years", etc. Even those who are interested in EVs have to get over the energy gradient that the nay-sayers have put up.

More to the point, there are huge and ongoing savings that come from reduced fuel and maintenance costs. That largely balances even relatively poor battery reliability. The average customer will almost certainly come out ahead (or very far ahead), though some will likely be faced with a battery replacement decision in the 8-10 year time frame and potentially lose some money if they have to pay current prices for a new battery.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Assuming 300k miles before replacement is the wrong assumption. Renault will not allow you to extend a lease beyond 6 years (72 months) and 120k miles. That means they don't expect their batteries to last much beyond that. In this case the time limit on the lease is a bigger limitation than your limit on miles (18k max per year, let's say you can get a 10 year lease, would give you 180k miles and that would not scale with battery size because that is a calendar life limitation).


Those terms are more worrying to me than Tesla's terms because it becomes a question of do you even have a battery anymore after 6 years/120k miles (and what kind of new terms would you have to agree with if you signed a new contract). You may be owning a car without a battery and be SOL at that point, whereas with the Tesla you still have your battery (albeit with lower capacity).

I would assess the situation as such that Renault doesn't want to plan too far ahead. They don't know the situation in the EV market 10 years from now. In any case, even if Renault decided to eliminate it's electric car program and stop making batteries, which would be the absolute worst case scenario, there will still be options.

1. Renault wouldn't want to be stuck with the batteries, so they'd sell them off to Zoe owners.
2. If Renault decided to screw their customers and take back the batteries and crush them, a third party will make new Zoe batteries. There would be tens of thousands of Zoes on the roads, and all of them would be willing to buy new batteries, at maybe $15,000, so there'd definitely be an opportunity for profit.

 

[Yggdrasill]

Doesn't change the brutal fact that the price Renault is charging for their lease is only reasonable if you assume total battery failure (i.e. a completely non-functioning battery with no salvage value) after 8 years and 60,000 miles. Thats pretty flippin far from "standing behind their product".

The cost per km is about the same as Tesla. How is that unreasonable?

 

[Yggdrasill]

I investigated the issue a bit further, and here, at least, the following producers hava a warrantied minimum capacity:

Citroen C-Zero: A minimum of 80% at 5 years / 50,000 km.
Mitsubishi i-MiEV: A minimum of 80% at 5 years/ 100,000 km.
Buddy, lead-acid: A minimum of 60% at 2 years/ 20,000 km.
Buddy, NiMH: A minimum of 80% at 10 years/ 100,000 km.
Tazzari Zero: A minimum of 70% at 5 years/ 50,000 km.
Ford/Azure Transit: A minimum of 80% at 5 years/ 100,000 km.
Enviro Bil, MIA Electric: A minimum of 80% at 5 years/ 80,000 km.
eCar Norge/Classic Electrics ecar 500 EV: A minimum of 80% at 5 years/ 100,000 km.

If these companies can do it, why can't Tesla?

 

[bonnie]

This one is pretty simple.

If the Model S battery doesn't hold up during real world conditions, warranty or no, there isn't a company. I suspect that Tesla mgmt has thought thru this far more obsessively than even we can do (though we're pretty good at the whole obsessive thing). They also have real world battery data from Roadster owners.

On my list of things to worry about, this one is pretty far down at the bottom.

 

[jerry33]

I investigated the issue a bit further, and here, at least, the following producers hava a warrantied minimum capacity:

Citroen C-Zero: A minimum of 80% at 5 years / 50,000 km.
Mitsubishi i-MiEV: A minimum of 80% at 5 years/ 100,000 km.
Buddy, lead-acid: A minimum of 60% at 2 years/ 20,000 km.
Buddy, NiMH: A minimum of 80% at 10 years/ 100,000 km.
Tazzari Zero: A minimum of 70% at 5 years/ 50,000 km.
Ford/Azure Transit: A minimum of 80% at 5 years/ 100,000 km.
Enviro Bil, MIA Electric: A minimum of 80% at 5 years/ 80,000 km.
eCar Norge/Classic Electrics ecar 500 EV: A minimum of 80% at 5 years/ 100,000 km.

If these companies can do it, why can't Tesla?

Umm, the highest number there is 100,000 km (63,000 miles). The car is still practically new at that point (or should be). Not much of a warranty risk for the vehicle manufacturer. If Tesla put out warranty numbers like that they would be laughed at. 63,000 miles is not even four years' driving unless you're using it as a weekend-only car.

 

[VolkerP]

The outstanding pair are the Buddy warranty values:

Buddy, lead-acid: A minimum of 60% at 2 years/ 20,000 km.
Buddy, NiMH: A minimum of 80% at 10 years/ 100,000 km.

=> with a well-tested, expensive chemistry that is known to last (NiMH) you get good values. With a chemistry that is known to suck (Pb-Acid) you get poor values.
Tesla chose a chemistry that is very dependent on being treated well so they warrant no capacity.

 

[jerry33]

The outstanding pair are the Buddy warranty values:


=> with a well-tested, expensive chemistry that is known to last (NiMH) you get good values. With a chemistry that is known to suck (Pb-Acid) you get poor values.
Tesla chose a chemistry that is very dependent on being treated well so they warrant no capacity.

Agreed, but for only 100,000 km you might as well not have a warranty.

 

[Tommy]

This one is pretty simple.

If the Model S battery doesn't hold up during real world conditions, warranty or no, there isn't a company. I suspect that Tesla mgmt has thought thru this far more obsessively than even we can do (though we're pretty good at the whole obsessive thing). They also have real world battery data from Roadster owners.

On my list of things to worry about, this one is pretty far down at the bottom.

Very true, any warranty language really does become moot if there is no company to honor it. Intended or not, one of the functions of a warranty is to build trust within a brand and that results in more sales due to confidence in the brand or what I refer to as peace of mind in the car purchase. Newcomer Hyundai successfully built up their brand and sales by offering a 10 year/100k mile warranty which was unheard of in the industry. They followed that up with a guaranteed trade in valve for repeat customers at the time of a new car purchase. Both are unique to the industry; Hyundai's brand enhanced.

With only 2.5k in Roadster sales, Tesla faces a much more difficult task of getting the word out about how stellar their warranty track record is. While I am convinced, based on your first hand experience reports, that Tesla will do right by their customer, Tesla needs to convince the mass market and word of mouth will only take you so far. Many posters have expressed that Tesla's battery warranty does not address their concerns, are they the outliers or the voice of the typical purchaser? In either case, Tesla offering a battery warranty that addresses their concern will position Tesla to both draw in new customers and enhance their brand image.

 

[bonnie]

Good points. And when I bought my Roadster, I was one of the few that pre-purchased a Roadster battery replacement option. My understanding is that Tesla offered that for precisely what you say -- to address potential concerns regarding the battery life.

 

[brianman]

Good points. And when I bought my Roadster, I was one of the few that pre-purchased a Roadster battery replacement option. My understanding is that Tesla offered that for precisely what you say -- to address potential concerns regarding the battery life.

I had hoped we'd see a similar replacement offering for the Model S, but I suspect we've passed the point of no return (beyond the point where they would have said something if they plan to offer it).

 

[bonnie]

There's now also more information about this battery technology than there was then. Lots more uncertainty existed before.

And now they're getting ready to offer Roadster extended warranties (vehicle and/or battery). I suspect you'll be able to get the same for Model S.

 

[stopcrazypp]

As you know batteries loose capacity as the temperature gets colder. One measurement of a batteries capacity is it's Cold Cranking Amperes (CCA). A battery that can start a car in warm weather as it deteriorates (the degradation) will be unable to start the same car in colder weather. That is exactly what happen to me and I was able to replace the battery under warranty. So it is not that the battery failed, it lost enough of its capacity that it could not start the car in cold weather and meet its CCA rating.

That's like the warranty that the Leaf provides on battery power (the battery must be able to provide the power to run the car at maximum demand). The degradation of capacity is still not covered in that case (neither is it for your lead acid battery). In the power case, there is a clear point of failure (the battery can't run the car). In the capacity there is no clear point of failure (the car runs perfectly fine, it just has less capacity).

Side note: Tesla apparently doesn't cover the power either, reading their warranty.