Starting to lose faith

[mknox]

Well maybe you need to wait until they start using 2170 cells from the Gigafactory. That should decrease the non-North American part count and significantly reduce the price of the car in Canada. (You can thank NAFTA for that.)

I attended a presentation by Tesla staff where they said the Gigafactory producing cells would help them keep the costs of the Model 3 down, and that North American production would eliminate the duty we currently pay. I asked if these savings would make their way into Model S and X pricing, and after some uncomfortable squirming was told, no, not likely.

 

[green1]

Model S and X were never meant to be affordable models. It might start off that way with our currency on par and they were just starting build the momentum.

But it is almost certain these are their flagship models, no different than a S class or 7 series.

Needless to say, like the usual comment. If you need to look at the price, you are not meant for it.

The plan used to be:
Roadster: High price, low volume
S/X: Mid price, mid volume
3: low price, high volume.

Unfortunately the S/X now cost significantly more than the roadster did.

Tesla has constantly increased their prices on everything, but why wouldn't they, they literally have no competition, and the cars keep selling as fast as they can build them.

I don't expect this to change until there's competition in the market. So I give Tesla another 5 years of rampant price increases before they have to start competing with other companies and therefore have to start lowering the prices on the S/X a bit.

 

[ThosEM]

Why do you need a Model X anyway? For the seven seats? The Model S is a large enough car for most people and has the room of many crossovers or smaller SUVs, and can be fitted with rear facing kiddie seats. And it has a lower CG and sportier feel, especially with performance options you may be able to afford on it.

 

[Forty Creek]

Why do you need a Model X anyway? For the seven seats? The Model S is a large enough car for most people and has the room of many crossovers or smaller SUVs, and can be fitted with rear facing kiddie seats. And it has a lower CG and sportier feel, especially with performance options you may be able to afford on it.

Some of the older relatives I take in the car, struggle to get into and out of the S, especially the back seats. This is the only reason that I'll be switching to an X this year (well, also AP2, better seats, newer build, AWD etc.)

 

[Dutchie]

Why do you need a Model X anyway? For the seven seats? The Model S is a large enough car for most people and has the room of many crossovers or smaller SUVs, and can be fitted with rear facing kiddie seats. And it has a lower CG and sportier feel, especially with performance options you may be able to afford on it.

Due to an injury I have back issues. The S is just too low for me to get easily in and out of th car. I'm afraid a Model 3 is too low also. Perhaps a Model Y but that is still a couple of years away..

 

[S'toon]

I know how the OP feels. Let's say I won a lottery, and could afford any car I wanted. Even the X 75D at over $120K is enough to make me hyperventilate. If they still had the 60D, I would fork out for that, as it was < $100K.

 

[mknox]

The plan used to be:
Roadster: High price, low volume
S/X: Mid price, mid volume
3: low price, high volume.

Unfortunately the S/X now cost significantly more than the roadster did.

Tesla has constantly increased their prices on everything, but why wouldn't they, they literally have no competition, and the cars keep selling as fast as they can build them.

I don't expect this to change until there's competition in the market. So I give Tesla another 5 years of rampant price increases before they have to start competing with other companies and therefore have to start lowering the prices on the S/X a bit.

Agree. When the Model S first came out in 2012, it was promoted as "starting under $50,000" which was appealing to me as that was right in the price range I was shopping. It did arrive at that price (just slightly higher in Canada) and I know someone who bought at that price. It didn't last long, though. They discontinued the 40 kWh pack (never actually made it, just delivered software-limited 60's) and things just got worse (price-wise) from there. I ordered a fully loaded S85 (except for child seats and 21" wheels) for a bit over $80k back in 2012. Miss those days

 

[ThosEM]

teslate

Due to an injury I have back issues. The S is just too low for me to get easily in and out of the car. I'm afraid a Model 3 is too low also. Perhaps a Model Y but that is still a couple of years away..

Some of the older relatives I take in the car, struggle to get into and out of the S, especially the back seats. This is the only reason that I'll be switching to an X this year (well, also AP2, better seats, newer build, AWD etc.)

Fair enough. This is perhaps a major reason why SUVs have become so popular. I guess as a nation we are aging, but I just hate to admit that about myself.

 

[FequalsMA]

One part of it is the currency and cost of doing business in Canada.
Despite piggybacking off US volume, Canadian consumers are still shafted on pricing compared to the neighbors down south.

Already stated is that S/X were never meant to come down in price. The flagship models will remain in that price segment.

To put it into context, Model S has had lifetime sales of <200K cars.
Compared to sales from any of the large manufactures, this is still very much low volume and much closer to still being akin to "made to order" shoes/ suits. I've never seen MTO shoes or suits being as cheap than off the rack.

There's also Supercharger network, Gigafactory, Autopilot that were all mostly designed and paid for in house.

 

[Dakkor]

Why do you need a Model X anyway? For the seven seats? The Model S is a large enough car for most people and has the room of many crossovers or smaller SUVs, and can be fitted with rear facing kiddie seats. And it has a lower CG and sportier feel, especially with performance options you may be able to afford on it.

Model S have increased price a lot also in Canada. I paid 135K for my car and the same config (aprox) would cost around 160k now. it's 25k more. You can buy a car with that money.

 

[green1]

Already stated is that S/X were never meant to come down in price. The flagship models will remain in that price segment.

I don't think anyone expected them to double in price though....

 

[mknox]

Already stated is that S/X were never meant to come down in price. The flagship models will remain in that price segment.

Never stated officially, but yes, it has been heard anecdotally. What was, if not stated, implied, is that the cost of all Tesla vehicles would come down with efficiencies of scale and battery manufacturing improvement. I think right now Tesla is in a somewhat enviable position of being able to charge whatever the market is willing to pay... and current high(er) prices don't seem to be stifling demand.

 

[green1]

I think right now Tesla is in a somewhat enviable position of being able to charge whatever the market is willing to pay... and current high(er) prices don't seem to be stifling demand.

Which is the result of zero competition. People have the choice, spend whatever Tesla wants to charge, or don't drive a long range EV in the premium class. There is no other choice.
As soon as that changes, Tesla will have to decide if they want to compete, so far we've seen no evidence that they know how to compete, because they've never been in a position to have to.

 

[Canuck]

Which is the result of zero competition. People have the choice, spend whatever Tesla wants to charge, or don't drive a long range EV in the premium class. There is no other choice.
As soon as that changes, Tesla will have to decide if they want to compete, so far we've seen no evidence that they know how to compete, because they've never been in a position to have to.

I don't know about that. Building the battery gigafactory in advance of anyone else tells me they know exactly how to compete. It's going to take a long time for other long range EV's to source a ton of batteries at the same price just to be able to compete, or to build their own extremely large battery factory.

But really, Tesla has said it's not about competition with other EV makers but with ICE makers. Perhaps they will sell batteries to other EV makers? That would be better for all of us. The more competition in the EV market the better.

 

[green1]

The more competition in the EV market the better.

That's the one part I agree with.

 

[FequalsMA]

Never stated officially, but yes, it has been heard anecdotally. What was, if not stated, implied, is that the cost of all Tesla vehicles would come down with efficiencies of scale and battery manufacturing improvement. I think right now Tesla is in a somewhat enviable position of being able to charge whatever the market is willing to pay... and current high(er) prices don't seem to be stifling demand.

I meant that it was mentioned earlier in the thread that S/X would probably remain competitive in their respective segments (ie: not dropping significantly in price). Actually citing Tesla Master Plan Part 1, might resolve this

"The strategy of Tesla is to enter at the high end of the market, where customers are prepared to pay a premium, and then drive down market as fast as possible to higher unit volume and lower prices with each successive model."

It does not say that "all" Tesla vehicles would come down in price, only that lower prices would arrive with each subsequent model.
While the Master plan does go on to mention what would be the Model S (and then a more affordable "third" model), I think the Model X was needed as another premium offering to cover the cost of infrastructure and R&D. What's important is that Tesla is adhering to their word and building Model 3 with a target MSRP much lower than S/X and with Gigafactory and a lot of inhouse development/ production, it seems quite possible they will reach their goal.

 

[mknox]

IWhat's important is that Tesla is adhering to their word and building Model 3 with a target MSRP much lower than S/X and with Gigafactory and a lot of inhouse development/ production, it seems quite possible they will reach their goal.

I hope they can too. Remember that the base Model S, when introduced, was sub-$50k. I' sure the 3 will be priced lower than current S and X models, but do worry they may come in at or near the 2012 prices of the S.

 

[FequalsMA]

I hope they can too. Remember that the base Model S, when introduced, was sub-$50k. I' sure the 3 will be priced lower than current S and X models, but do worry they may come in at or near the 2012 prices of the S.

Well tick enough option boxes on any car and it can get expensive.
Assuming the dollar doesn't drop any further and USMSRP can stick to 35K, I'm optimistic that Canadian MSRP for model 3 can be around 42K and options and taxes will drive it easily to 50K+. Still out of reach for some but much more possible purchase for greater number of Canadians vs. the Model S.

For context, the 2012 model S that was avail for ~USD 60K was essentially a barebones car with 40kWh usable,/ EPA 200km range, rear drive, and no supercharging.

Like for like, a base Model 3 is pretty much guaranteed to have a larger battery pack with greater range, SC enabled, and AP hardware.

 

[mknox]

For context, the 2012 model S that was avail for ~USD 60K was essentially a barebones car with 40kWh usable,/ EPA 200km range, rear drive, and no supercharging.

Actually, it was $50k and did offer supercharging... sort of. Tesla never did build the 40 kWh battery and delivered these cars with software limited 60 kWh packs. As mentioned previously,I know someone who bought one. He was able to pay for and "unlock" the full 60 kWh capacity and enable supercharging after he had it for a while. He now gets free supercharging for life. So yeah,that pushed the car above $50k US, but still considerably less expensive than a new car.

 

[kzod]

All Luxury companies offer upgrades that offer very little in terms of value, but are huge in terms of prestige. The P100D version of all Tesla's are the fastest and most trendy cars available. And because they are 'cool' more people want them and will pay more. That's why people will spend a ludicrous amount of cash to make there cars take-off faster. It's also what most friends will ask if you have. If that's what you want and can afford it, go and buy it! If it's too much money, I'm sure you'd have the complaint with every car company when looking at how fast prices escalate for the prestige models. Personally, I do well but would never spend that type of cash on a car. a 75D would do very well for me.